Latest realistic era for MM MkIID coachng stock

[murphaph]

Hi all,

Long time lurker here.

I have a question for the collective wisdom of the group. When is the last year the mkIId coaches a la MM (Supertrain livery) ran in that livery? 

 

Thanks a lot,

Phil in Berlin

[hexagon789]

48 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Hi all,

Long time lurker here.

I have a question for the collective wisdom of the group. When is the last year the mkIId coaches a la MM (Supertrain livery) ran in that livery? 

 

Thanks a lot,

Phil in Berlin

About 1990. They first started getting repainted in about 1988, the Mk3 stock was done first.

I've seen a couple of photos with the odd Mk2D still in Supertrain in 1990 in Sligo and Belfast sets. It seems the composites were the last to be treated as all the examples are vehicles with the composite bodyshell.

 

(N.B. in 1989 only 3 Mk2D composites were still such, the rest had been converted to Standards, five in 1973 and one in about 1988-ish; one of the 1973 converted composites would later be converted back. Additionally all but one of the Superstandards (full Firsts) was converted to Standard by 1989 as well.)

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by hexagon789

[murphaph]

Thanks a Mil. I believe when these sets did get the IR/tippex livery that they just applied the white lining to the ST livery. Is that correct do you know?

I'm interested in modelling the 1990s.

[hexagon789]

6 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Thanks a Mil. I believe when these sets did get the IR/tippex livery that they just applied the white lining to the ST livery. Is that correct do you know?

I'm interested in modelling the 1990s.

Jhb would probably know, he's a mine of information on all things livery-related.

 

I've just had another thought, I assume you would be modelling mixes rakes of Tippex/ST? All ST rakes went out in 1987, I don't think you'd see any after that and even in 1988 most coaches seemed to have gained Tippex.

In response to my earlier point, the three photos I was thinking of are all dated 1988 not 1990.

I have another few to check but it might actually have been earlier than 1990.

[murphaph]

Appreciate your efforts!

[DiveController]

Conversion to 'Tippex' merely involved addition of the white lines as transfers to the ST livery and additional of the 'set of points' IR logo.

[jhb171achill]

9 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

Jhb would probably know, he's a mine of information on all things livery-related.

 

I've just had another thought, I assume you would be modelling mixes rakes of Tippex/ST? All ST rakes went out in 1987, I don't think you'd see any after that and even in 1988 most coaches seemed to have gained Tippex.

In response to my earlier point, the three photos I was thinking of are all dated 1988 not 1990.

I have another few to check but it might actually have been earlier than 1990.

The "Tippex" livery came into being along with the "set of points" IE logo in late 1987.

it was the same, exactly, as the "Supertrain" livery, with the following exceptions:

1.  Replacement of CIE "roundel", which was ONLY a On the ends of locomotives, with the new "set of points" logo on ends AND sides of locos.

2.  White lines, hence the "tippex" nickname for the livery - as if they'd just gone along the side of a train with a "tippex" pen. NIR would soon copy this; in 1988 white lines would  start appearing on the light blue and light grey NIR "Enterprise" carriage livery.

3. On carriages, the words "inter city" in a sort of "joined writing" style would start appearing in hitherto blank carriage sides.

Many coaches still sported the older livery over the next two or three years, but as Hexagon suggests, they seemed to add the white lines fairly quickly.

[murphaph]

Great information folks. So it seems the mkII tippex models are not readily available but a bit of ST stock is (the stock some people complained about). A realistic conversion would be to add white lining (how many inches deep?) and intercity/ir decals. Is that right?

If so, did the tippex lining follow the black window band all the way around to the gangway doors or stop short?

Anything else I should be aware of if contemplating modification of the mkII ST models?

[DiveController]

I think the ends are black with the red warning square number etc

[jhb171achill]

The ends were black, yes, but the day-glo squares were a later addition.

Yes, adding white lining would be suitable. You’d need the “intercity” writing too, though initially many had got the white stripes but not yet this writing. I think Railtec do the writing. Somebody does....

[murphaph]

So just to be clear, you guys reckon they added the lining and simultaneously painted the ends all black, so just adding the lining would not pass muster?

[DiveController]

Jhb is probably right, I was referring to IE and not IR era and couldn't recall when they were added exactly. 

[jhb171achill]

I can’t be certain on this, but the black ends start appearing about the same time as the white lines - maybe one a bit before or after.

In reply to the question about the width of the white lines, about 3 inches.

[murphaph]

On the egv in this shot the lining appears to go around the corner and the ends don't appear all black, but it's not conclusive as the loco blocks a good deal.

 

https://images.app.goo.gl/2T9G47qbxqQ1qiCeA

I wouldn't be surprised if some were done one way and some the other to be honest. I'd say I could live with it as I'm unlikely to get a better mkII in tippex livery any other way. The proper ones seem rare.

 

[jhb171achill]

On 7/19/2020 at 8:00 PM, murphaph said:

On the egv in this shot the lining appears to go around the corner and the ends don't appear all black, but it's not conclusive as the loco blocks a good deal.

 

https://images.app.goo.gl/2T9G47qbxqQ1qiCeA

I wouldn't be surprised if some were done one way and some the other to be honest. I'd say I could live with it as I'm unlikely to get a better mkII in tippex livery any other way. The proper ones seem rare.

 

It went round the ends just a little bit, maybe 6 inches or so.

[hexagon789]

On 7/19/2020 at 1:05 AM, jhb171achill said:

The "Tippex" livery came into being along with the "set of points" IE logo in late 1987.

it was the same, exactly, as the "Supertrain" livery, with the following exceptions:

1.  Replacement of CIE "roundel", which was ONLY a On the ends of locomotives, with the new "set of points" logo on ends AND sides of locos.

2.  White lines, hence the "tippex" nickname for the livery - as if they'd just gone along the side of a train with a "tippex" pen. NIR would soon copy this; in 1988 white lines would  start appearing on the light blue and light grey NIR "Enterprise" carriage livery.

3. On carriages, the words "inter city" in a sort of "joined writing" style would start appearing in hitherto blank carriage sides.

Many coaches still sported the older livery over the next two or three years, but as Hexagon suggests, they seemed to add the white lines fairly quickly.

Broadly ties in with what I was thinking jhb, the main issue is precisely tying down when each range of stock was completed. There are definitely Cravens and Park Royals without the stripes in 1990 or so, the Mk2D and Mk3 stock seems to have all be done by 1989 at least and certainly I cannot find even Mk2Ds in ST after 1988, I had thought I'd seen a photo of one in such in 1990 but I think I got the date wrong.

[jhb171achill]

I’ve an idea that the last “pre-tippex” carriage was about 1993-4.

 

[hexagon789]

21 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

I’ve an idea that the last “pre-tippex” carriage was about 1993-4.

 

Probably a Park Royal I'd hazard, given they were being withdrawn but the Cravens lasted another 10-12 years.

[jhb171achill]

Indeed, Very probably (I can’t recall) though a very small number of Cravens made it past 1990 also in their original livery.

[DiveController]

There were certainly some stock in the ST livery in 1990 but probably decreasing after that but probably not the Mk2/3 stock that was in frequent mainline use. Transitional livery the loco (ST with IR logo to hit the roundel)

 

[jhb171achill]

Small point on the “transitional”.

Being transitional, there were exceptions! I saw one loco (141 I think but can’t recall) with the new “set of points” on the sides and ONE end but not the other.

[DiveController]

"Sure, it won't be seen next to the lead coach ...."

[hexagon789]

Well, I've found a Dublin-Cork express with the EGV still in ST dated 1988, rest of train including the 071 is in "Tippex", "IR 'points'" on the loco.

Still cannot find any AC stock in ST after 1988 and I've pretty much exhausted all the photo galleries I can think of that I use for reference purposes.

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by hexagon789
Partial double posting

[murphaph]

Thanks very much for trying so hard

[hexagon789]

10 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Thanks very much for trying so hard

No problem, should I ever come across an ST Air-con post-1988 I'll put it up just to prove my mind wasn't playing tricks on me in the first place!

Edited July 25, 2020 by hexagon789

[DiveController]

51 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Well, I've found a Dublin-Cork express with the EGV still in ST dated 1988, rest of train including the 071 is in "Tippex", "IR 'points'" on the loco.

Still cannot find any AC stock in ST after 1988 and I've pretty much exhausted all the photo galleries I can think of that I use for reference purposes.

 

I think the EGVs were probably last the get the livery unless they had to be taken out of service, passenger vehicles getting the tippex treatment first 

[hexagon789]

11 minutes ago, DiveController said:

I think the EGVs were probably last the get the livery unless they had to be taken out of service, passenger vehicles getting the tippex treatment first 

Well the funny thing was it was the first EGV - 7601! It was part of the first two Mk3 sets in traffic so I think a contender for Mk3 to have worn original livery the longest.

7140 on the other hand seems to have been one of the first to be repainted as opposed to introduced in the new scheme, it was also part of the first two sets in traffic.