2996 Victor

As the HMRS is in lockdown, I've been a bit naughty with this drawing and taken a screen-shot, and printed it to fit an A3. It certainly looks like a drawing that's been rolled up for a long time. Although the HMRS logo is still present, it's come out pretty clear, clear enough to start to produce my own drawing, except that the underframe details are not that clear. The underframe appears to be channel section iron or steel with what look like wooden extensions to headstocks to act as door buffers. Now, I'm an engineer by trade and I pride myself on being able to read an engineering drawing, but the lack of clarity is mildly frustrating. Bearing in mind that the drawing is from the Metro Cammell archives, and hence from a private builder, there's no reason why these wagons couldn't have had iron or steel underframes. But apart from a few goods brakes, the photos of MGWR wagons that I've seen all have wooden frames. I'll have a fresh look at it tomorrow! In the meantime, though, I've sent my membership application to the IRRS

Hi John, many thanks for your comprehensive reply, most imformative as always! The photo of Richard Chown's brake van is intriguing: presumably the incline vans were used specifically on the cattle specials to the docks? The 1883 ballast vans you mention sound like what would be necessary to accompany some ballast opens in a PW train - I'm afraid I've only got the first page of POC's Wagon Stock paper, so apologies if you've had to repeat some information! Many thanks as always and kind regards, Mark

You could use bargeboards to disguise any small discrepancies between the walls and the roof? Best regards, Mark

Great work! Keep the photos coming, please. How about corrugated iron for the roof? With kind regards, Mark

Hi Jonathan, Thank you so much for once again coming to the rescue - I thought you'd have the answers! The distinctive sand-beige livery with black lettering may have been considered sufficiently different to discriminate between traffic and PW stock without PW Dept (or similar) branding, so I'd say your suggestion to just use the MGWR and number pending firm evidence is a good option. I can see a short PW train being on my list of things to build! Did all PW brake vans have ploughs - presumably there's a drawing somewhere..... By the way, are there any stock books in existence that give running numbers? Thank you once again for all your help and advice. With kind regards, Mark

Hi MM, Thank you for the extra info, very useful as always, and although the later period is after my preferred era, it's always useful as well as interesting to know what changes took place and when. With kind regards, Mark

Hi MM, Many thanks - understand that as it was far too big (and far too late for my chosen period), but what I wondered was whether the Power Van would have been in the sand-beige livery Ernie Shepherd's book mentions, as the form and colour of lettering could/would be a clue to MGWR PW wagons in general. With kind regards, Mark

Dear All, I'm returning to the question of ballast wagons, and the 3-plank in the HMRS link above, dated1894. I have yet more questions (!), which hopefully the erudite among will be able to help with - Jonathan @jhb171achill and John @Mayner will, I'm sure know the answers (no pressure, chaps!). Ernie Shepherd gives details of wagon liveries in his book, of course, and we've already touched on these in this thread. He states that PW wagons were painted a sand-beige colour, which I've seen mentioned in other threads on this Forum. I would like to assume that this was the case for many years and would be appropriate for my my era! That being the case, presumably the lettering would have been black? But what would that have consisted of? Presumably "MGWR" and the vehicle number, plus "ENGINEER'S DEPT" or "PW DEPT"? In the photo on page 101 of Ernie Shepherd's book, is Power Van No.1 this livery? Thanks in advance for your thoughts, folks! With kind regards, Mark

I meant to add that the basic materials I use are styrene sheets, strip and sections of various thicknesses, mostly Evergreen although there's a fair amount of Slater's Plastikard, too. For assembly, I use solvent adhesive for styrene parts, MEK for preference as its not too strong, but if I need a bit more oomph I use PlasticWeld. Any other materials that need to be joined to my wagons are fixed usually with cyano and occasionally with epoxy. For smoothing, I have various grades on fine sandpaper, some well-worn, and for filing my preference is to use a wood-cored emery board, such as women use for their nails, as they are strong and file a straight, flat surface. To cut the parts, I either scribe with the Olfa P-cutter and snap, or use a Swann Morton scalpel and No.10 or 10A blade. A small update on the loco coal open box wagon builds with the addition of corner plates, which are made from two widths of Evergreen strip, 10thou x 80thou and 10thou x 100thou. I cut off over-length sections of four of each width per wagon making sure that one end at least is square! The narrow sections go on the ends of the wagons, with the "square" ends at the bottom flush with the top of the headstocks. They are set so the edges line up flush with the corners of the wagons but with no overlap. The wider section strips form the faces of the corner plates on the wagon side, and again the "square" ends are set flush with the tops of the solebars. Bearing in mind that these strips are 20thou wider, they are set so that their inside edges are 2mm in from the end of the wagon, giving a narrow overlap of 10thou over the edge of the end plates. I'm afraid that all sounds a bit confusing - a sketch or two would probably be clearer, but hopefully this photo should help: http:// Although the corner plate strips have been trimmed to length, you can see the light behind the overlapping edge. This photo shows one wagon has had its corner plates added and trimmed to length, while the second one is still a work in progress with the Evergreen strips to one side: http:// Wagon corner plates were pressed steel, of course, and should have a rounded fold. The way I achieve that is to gently file the overlap down til its gone, and then file a small 45 degree chamfer onto the corner which is finally rounded off to a small radius. The trick again is to not overdo - photos are the best way to get a feel for how much to file away. Hopefully this photo should show the slight radius to the finished corner plates: http:// Its easier to finish the corner plates before adding the end pillars or side strapping, as the latter just get in the way! Anyway, back to the bench! Kind regards, Mark

Dear All, many, many thanks for all your kind words and encouragement, if my efforts can in some little inspiration to others to have a go, then I'll be happy indeed! MM, thank you - I'm just doing my best! I started scratchbuilding goods stock probably thirty-odd years ago and was building kits before that, although there was a long break in the middle, and really its all a matter of practice. The greatest trick I found is to take my time, take maximum care marking out and cutting out parts, and get the basic structure square and to the correct dimensions. If I'm not happy with something, I just try again - I've scrapped more models than I care to think about! At the same time, I've also found its important to set a standard to work to and to stick to it for all my builds - it's all too easy to get caught up in super-detailing to the Nth degree, but it can become a millstone when one vehicle takes three weeks to finish and you've twenty more exactly like it to build! As someone once said, strive for excellence, not perfection! I'm no expert and I'm certainly not saying my way of doing things is necessarily the best way, but if I can help with any hints, tips or advice, please, please do ask a question! I'm planning on a brake van soon, and its progress will be on here - watch this space! With kindest regards, Mark

Dear All, in case anyone's interested, I've posted my workbench thread here, and its also linked in my signature. I hope it'll prove to be useful, and I'm always open to hints and tips for new and better ways of model making, so please don't hesitate to add your posts and photos there as well as here. With kind regards, Mark

Hi John, I'm afraid I've no idea what the castings are that @Mike 84C is referring to, although at first I wondered if they were label boxes for consignment labels, then looking at the shape of them again, I wondered if could they be drains for washing out after the vehicle has been used for livestock, but I suspect they're too far up the vehicle's sides. Thanks for the link, those photos are full of atmosphere and great detail on the convertibles, including useful numbering! With kind regards, Mark

My first project on here will be the scratchbuild of MGWR open box wagons, using the drawings in Ernie Shepherd's book, the first two wagons will be completed as locomotive coal wagons which from the photograph in the book show some detail differences to the drawing. So here goes: First off is a photo showing my copy of Ernie Shepherd's book, some notes made for dimensions, together with my TV and the corner of my weathering tray! http:// The second photo was taken during preparation of the sides and ends, plank lines and door outlines scribed in on both sides! The base material is 30thou plastic sheet, this scales out at approximately 2-1/2", which was the common thickness for side and end sheets of wagons in the late-Victorian era. I use an Olfa P-Cutter to scribe the lines as this removes a sliver of plastic rather than indenting a line which usually causes a distortion. Used with care, by angling the P-Cutter its possible to create a prototypical chamfer on the top edge of each plank. The first set of sides/ends are cut out, the second set are in strip form, and three more sets are still on the sheet. http:// The third photo shows the first two sets assembled; these will be the loco coal wagons. I use simple butt corner joints as its far easier to keep the length of the sides and ends correct than if you try to file a chamfer where its easy file too much and accidentally shorten something! I use the grid on the cutting mat to keep things square, and add the floor afterward having measured the internal dimensions of each wagon individually. http:// Photos 4 and 5 show one wagon having had its floor, headstocks and solebars added. The floor is a bit of a cheat in that its cut from Evergreen 100thou (2.5mm) spacing V-groove sheet, 40thou thickness. Its cut 2mm narrower than the internal width of the wagon body, the edges being made up by a strip of 40thou square which is intended to represent a curb rail. Before adding the headstocks and solebars, the underside of the wagon body/floor assembly was sanded smooth on a flat surface so that the underside provides a flat base to mount the headstocks and solebars. These are cut from Evergreen 60thou x 156thou strip, the headstocks are wider than the wagon body, and these are cut over-wide to allow for filing down to the correct dimension using a template. http:// http:// Thats it for now as it's time for dinner - I'll post up some more photos tomorrow showing how I create the corner plates. All the best, Mark

The time has arrived to start a workbench thread for my projected MGWR branchline terminus layout, where I'll be building wagons, carriages and eventually locos, plus of course structures and the other little bits and bobs that go into creating a hopefully convincing model railway. The period I'm interested in is 1900-1905. This is the timeframe I usually go with, and my other projects are almost all set in this period of transition from Victorian to Edwardian eras. My standard gauge projects, Great Western Railway in Somerset and Cambrian Railways in mid-Wales, will be to EM Gauge Society standards. I'm a member of that Society, and for consistency's sake I want to stay with EMGS standards but using the correct gauge for 4mm/1ft scale of 21mm. While I applaud anyone who can create a convincing model railway, no matter the scale or gauge, personally I think its particularly important to use the right gauge as this is such a characteristic feature of Ireland's broad gauge railways. I've always found that one of the more difficult aspects of model-making is setting the standard to work to consistently. Unfortunately, I'm not a fast worker - continental drift is quicker - which means that while I strive for excellence I don't want to take forever to achieve it! Thus, I've reached the point where my specification for A N Other Goods Wagon will be: 21mm gauge, EM Gauge Society standards Etched axleguards with whitemetal, plastic or 3D-printed axlebox/spring assemblies Rigid underframe (fit inside bearing compensation unit if necessary), although I may compensate.....moving the goalposts already! Improved brakegear if a kit Sprung buffers Couplings - ? - I haven't decided yet but they must be unobtrusive So that's the preamble out of the way, and we can move on to something that's hopefully a bit more interesting!

The Historical Model Railway Society has a number of MGWR drawings and photographs, including such gems as: Open Cattle Wagon, 8ft w/b, 14ft 2ins o/b dated 1885 Ballast Wagon, 9ft w/b, 15ft o/h dated 1894 Covered Goods, 8ft w/b, 14ft-2ins o/b dated 1895 There are also quite a lot of other goods wagon and carriage drawings available, although as there aren't thumbnails of these it's difficult to tell exactly what they are, as well as photographs of mainly the locomotive stock. Unfortunately (and I say this knowing and taking into account that the HMRS is run entirely by volunteers in their spare time), the drawing and photograph service is slow at the best of times. At the moment it's completely shut down, of course. There are also some drawings in "19th Century Railway Drawings in 4mm Scale" by Alan Prior: a GS&WR convertible, and an open cattle and a coal wagon from the Ulster Railway. As an aside, there's a rather nice open cattle wagon kit available from 5&9 Models, but its not an Irish prototype, of course! All the best, Mark

These magazines are well-worth seeking out, and not just for David Malone's articles. As far as I know, there was a Preview Issue and six numbered issues, and unfortunately that's as far as it went. David Malone's "Modelling the Irish Broad Gauge" articles appeared in Issue 1 (Part 1: A Bit of Background Blarney), along with a separate two-page colour spread, Issue 2 (Part 2: Building 5ft 3ins PW), Issue 4 (Part 3: Signalling) and Issue 6 (Part 4: Irish Goods Stock). Definitely plenty of useful information in these magazines! With kind regards, Mark

Hi John, excellent photos, thank you! The dedicated cattle wagons are an interesting design, and its also interesting to note the convertible marshalled next to a cattle wagon in the first photograph. The idea of using convertibles for general goods traffic and livestock seems a bit alien to me, having been brought up on English railways! The limewash around the louvres is characteristic, isn't it? The side view in the second picture could be used to create a drawing if necessary, working on know dimesions such as wheel diameters and the known dimensions of "Titan". The cattle wagons look quite familiar in their design - I'll have to see if I can find anything similar. London & South Western Railway seems to ring a bell, for some reason, but they could equally be similar to most English cattle wagons with the exception of the GWR, of course. I'd certainly like to include some open cattle wagons in my fleet, but if they were camera-shy and no drawings exist, then that's off the agenda, unfortunately. With kind regards, Mark

Hi Jonathan, again a wealth of information, thank you! The use of "convertibles" is all but unknown on English railways - occasionally some vans, usually as part of a larger "lot", would be fitted with a sliding roof door. The architypal assymetric Midland van (a la Slater's kit) is a type that springs to mind, and I understand that some of the GWR's tallest (8' high) wooden vans were so built, although I don't recall seeing a photograph. Dedicated cattle wagons were more the norm. Interestingly, having seen how the percentages of open box wagons stack up against the convertibles, the opposite was the case in England with numbers of opens far-outweighing covered wagons. With kind regards, Mark

Dear All, apologies for not having posted sooner, especially after all the fantastic info you've all provided - I was otherwise engaged yesterday afternoon and evening, and didn't have time last night to respond! So I hope you'll all forgive me for having been quiet. MM, I absolutely agree, and what you say about the model railway hobby is spot-on - it's a community thing with the sharing of knowledge, both of the prototype and how to reproduce it in miniature, and it's great to be in the company of like-minded folks! That's a bit of a shame, but I suppose that only a limited number of period photos actually exist - like all these things it's a question of whether an enthusiast with a camera happened to be in the right place at the right time. I haven't put up my workbench thread yet, hopefully in the next couple of days, but I'll make a note of it on here when I finally do! All the best, Mark Hi Angus, Many thanks for your kind offer - I'll PM you, if that's okay! Best regards, Mark

I'm intending to join the IRRS as soon as I can, so I'll be able to get in touch with Richard MacLachlann. The compendium will definitely not be a cheap investment, but hopefully a worthwhile one! With kind regards, Mark

Fantastic photos, thank you! So much of huge interest - the convertible goods wagon and the butter wagon in particular are full of atmosphere and useful detail! Thank you again and kind regards, Mark

Dear Jonathan, Many thanks for your posts, and especially the photographs! I'm happy scratch-building, although I'm not a fast worker! Any (good!) kits that are suitable are consequently extremely welcome, such as the JM Design horsebox and meat/fish van kits. I do have Ernie Shepherd's book, and I'm hoping to be able to get a copy of the IRRS MGWR Picture Book. The open-topped cattle wagons would be a distinctive and interesting addition to the roster, if drawings are available - perhaps in the Broadstone Series or the IRRS Compendium? I've certainly heard of Richard Chown and Castle Rackrent - I seem to recall an article in Railway Modeller many moons ago that I was extremely taken with. It may well have been Castle Rackrent that originally sparked my interest in Irish Broad Gauge! Thanks once again for all your help and advice! With kind regards, Mark

Fabulous, thank you @Galteemore, that's brilliant! With kind regards, Mark

Dear All, In the interests of keeping things going while I am scratch-building some MGWR open box wagons (my workbench will magically appear when I've got some photos worth posting!), I wonder if I could have some advice about the kits currently available? I'm in touch with Des at SSM and hope to order a couple of his MGWR convertible goods wagon kits, but I'm also interested in some "foreign" wagons. Somewhere we briefly discussed the likelihood of other companies' goods wagons being found on MGWR metals, the answer being definitely so. So, in that vein, and given that I'm planning on including livestock specials, would the Provincial Models SL&NCR 7ton cattle wagon be suitable for the 1900-1905 period? And likewise their SL&NCR 7ton covered goods wagon? Sadly, their GNR cattle wagon is to a 1938 pattern, so way too late for me! Thanks as always for any thoughts and ideas! Stay safe and stay well, Mark

I'm just starting a scratch build of one (or two) 7ton Loco Coal wagons, so I'm looking forward to seeing your progress with this project and the hopper wagon. With kind regards, Mark