jhb171achill

I'd better start eating unpleasant things so that I won't taste nice....... so it's snails, garlic, germolene and strawberry jam for supper, with a sauce of over-ripe raspberries, out-of-date rashers, onion gravy (stale) and tapioca. Yup - says it in a nutshell. Now, if that thing had been used in 1916 in Kerry, or in 1690 in the north, it would be preserved. Not otherwise. (I wonder if I could get those letters off...)

Indeed - which begs the question what then - more 201s, probably.............. which would simply mean that today that whole fleet would be in use, and Ireland would have but a solitary class of locomotive. Things are unvaried enough as it is!, so thank gawd for 071s (never thought I'd say that about modern locos...!)

Yes, the one about re-engineing the B101s was very much true. As you say, they got superb use out of the 071s - but imagine if 071-type engines had gone into the Sulzers - would they still be seen in Ballina at the front of a train of containers?

A Jen You Wine MGWR 0.3.7 tank engine!

True, but what we have now is likely to be the limit. We've done well for our size, and our very limited level of interest but we're still much, much smaller.

Just for info purposes, in case anyone's still awake - I'll outline a few of the "might-have-beens"; tis a slow, cold, rainy Saturday night, and I have not yet decided whether I'm prepared to go down the road tonight for a pint. So; as far as I remember, and having been involved in feasibility studies (promoted by other people, not me!).... 1. Tullow. Two wealthy businessmen (so they said) approached the RPSI in the early 1990s. Their question: "Have you any old trains for sale?". (Yes, I know, I know, but better is to come, dear reader, and they never even mentioned the brits building anything to control us, or lines closed in the 1950s being sold for scrap to make bombs to drop on Germany.....!) Their rationale: they and their families had been on holiday in Britain and had taken a trip on one of the busier steam railways there, and on a bank holiday. I think it was the Severn Valley, but it doesn't matter. They noted six and seven coach trains jammed to the doors with people, and worked out that the fares paid per mile were very much higher than CIE charged. "Must make an absolute fortune!" they concluded. I exchanged several phone calls and correspondence with them, and we worked out that IF they had the bottomless pockets they claimed to have, and IF they owned the four miles of the trackbed of the line that they said they did, the RPSI could lease the two J15s to them. In theory. As always in railway preservation, theory and practice are not just on different planets - they are in different galaxies. When the realities of the care and maintenance of steam locos was made clear to them, along with the regulatory necesseties of boiler care and insurance, track maintenance and the like, they ran away scared. We had not yet discussed marketing, public access, sight lines for access roads, suitable access for low loaders bringing rolling stock, and financial sustainability, let alone commented on the fact that half a million tourists just will NOT ever descend on Tullow per year solely to travel four miles behind a J15 with two coaches. However, in an imaginary world, we now have a four mile line from the (then still existing) fully restored Tullow station, complete with original overall roof! Hell, why not throw in a new-build GSWR 4.4.0..... It would, of course, look great! 2. Belcoo. This was born of cross-border "Peace Money", along with IFI & ERDF funding. Had it come to pass, and it very nearly did - it would have consisted on a mile and a half of the SLNCR (stop that drooling, Galteemore, that's yer last wanring). This would have run from Belcoo station, across the road and down through fields to the MacNean bridge, which was (and is) in two bits in the water following being blown up by the British Army during the troubles in case those with issues about their presence in the area (which, to be fair, was the majority locally!) might use it to escape their attentions when moving things that might go "bang" about during nocturnal hours. And the funding was THERE! Yes, a first time for everything. Unfortunately, this dropped dead in the water due to a discrepancy of opinion amongst two leading local landowners, each of whom took the view that if the other one was in favour, well I'm aginst it. Had it come to pass, it was to be done on a low-cost, low key basis. With approval from IE, the Sligo railcar was to go to Brexitland to be refurbed and fitted with an almost new Gardner engine similar to the Donegal railcars. This was long before there was any talk of that vehicle going to Downpatrick; it was then languishing in Mallow, to which certain scrap merchants had, eh, travelled in order to relieve it of anything valuable, but thus enabling rain to get in and rust parts of it from the inside out. (At least it has survived). Permission WAS obtained for that, and Fermanagh Council agreed to part-fund it. Next, the RPSI would be approached with a view to having "Lough Erne" as a static exhibit there, and the NCC Railcar No. 1 also given a refurb and an identical Gardner engine. Ulsterbus was prepared to provide sheet metal and upholstery. The line would operate from Belcoo down to the lake shore - an excellent scheme. The terminus, like inch Abbey, would be a platform with short run round. No frills, but perfect for a location like that. No nonsensical, emotion-driven notions of new-builds hauling Enterprise-sized trains, to which every tourist on the island would surely want to do rather than go to the Giant's Causeway, Trinity College or the Cliffs of Moher. A "G" class, the Whitehead MGWR six-wheeler, again restored, and a brake van - all of which were available - would complete the entire stock. No endless sidings full of unsightly scrap - there was no room for anything like that anyway. An old carriage chassis - laminate, I think it was, with a flat floor on it, would serve as a loco-pushed "work wagon", similar to that at Downpatrick back in the day. By the time there was some sort of light of day where the two local landowners MIGHT agree, the funding pots were dried up, never to be repeated again on such generous terms. Personally, the above would have been my favourite. 3. Athboy. Another one I liked, and invested much research in. A study group was established; a founder member of IRM was one of the gang; in which the issue of a DCDR-style heritage railway within maybe an hour's drive of Dublin was contemplated. The purpose of the group was to extensively research what was possible, what suitable funding sources might be there, and what engineering and other issues might have to be addressed. In an initial meeting, and following some groundwork by several members, some eighteen possible sites were identified. Any with level crossings or access issues, either for the general public or bringing rolling stock in, were obviously eliminated straight away once those issues became known. From memory, there were two separate sites on the old Tullow branch looked at, a complete green-field site in Co. Wexford, where a new line could run along the river bank for two miles near Bunclody; a stretch near Carlingford, and a possible bit of the Kingscourt line were all looked at. Within one and a half meetings, we were left with two possibilities. For one reason or another all of the others were eliminated completely (as opposed to being considered less desirable). The two were Ballinglen - near Tinahely on the Shillelagh branch, now a rough greenway type of footpath; and Trim to Athboy. Both Trim and Athboy stations were long gone, but road access was fine, both are tourist towns, near a motorway, etc etc. So what would it have looked like? One end would have been fairly rudimentary, a la Inch Abbey. The other, probably the Athboy end, would be a new-build small station with the appearance of a small Dublin & Meath station. Rolling stock would be - with the initial agreement of the ITG - three "G" class; one on loan from Downpatrick, and two from Carrick-on-Suir. All three would be sent to Germany, where these things were still being built NEW at the time, or had been in the very recent past, and refurbed over there into as-delivered condition. Several laminates would be obtained, possibly heated in the same way the Loughrea coach was. Again, the Whitehead six-wheeler, a basic couple of ballast hoppers, work bogie and guard's van, and nothing else. Space would be available in a museum for displaying an RPSI or Cultra steam loco which was not in use. What went wrong with THAT one was that one landowner owned well over half of the route, which was straight and entirely clear, just through fields. That landowner was having none of it. The study group presented its findings to the local authorities / councillors at each end of the line. On a scale of 1-100, the interest level shown was 0. So there's a few might have beens to discuss over pints tonight, wherever you'll be!

Indeed - I omitted to point out that due to its industrial history, the greater Belfast area will have the lion's share of anything "industrial" in Ireland, and that biggish-sized boat accounts for the bulk of THAT; despite thw proximity of Whitehead to what is actually the most intensively "industrial" area on this island, it still doesn't get more than a trickle. Imagine how many Whitehead would get if it was situated in North Mayo or West Cork!

Indeed - I am sure that will follow!

This raises an interesting point I referred to earlier. Firstly, our thanks to Leslie for paying his taxes on time! Leslie mentions the fact that "southern" exhibits are (and were!) few. This amplifies perfectly what I mentioned earlier - that a suitably numerous body of folks on this island - in all corners of it - and whether elected representatives, public figures or just "normal" people - with a sufficient interest in such things simply doesn't exist, never did, and unless the world changes very dramatically indeed, never will. Local "culture" on this island in terms of memorials and visitor attractions that local authorities or private individuals are prepared to invest in are many, but railways simply don't register. We are not a nation of railway enthusiasts; most of us here, if we think about this, will realise that. So, old locomotives, carriages and stations were all just scrapped, and early (since CIE went diesel earlier than NI or Britain). Sure who wants them oul steam trains - scrap'em, good price for the scrap. Whitehead had 8000 visitors last year. The NRM in York (not counting Shildon) had 570,000+. The Ulster Folk and Transport Museum has 200,000+. The vast majority of these by far visited the old houses and folk museum, NOT the railway part. So let's allow maybe 40,000, arguably generouusly, for the Transport gallery - and half or more of these go because of the road vehicles. It is not unrealistic, therefore, to assume that perhaps 15,000 specifically went to see railway exhibits. Let's number-crunch. 38 times as many people go to the NRM than (probably) specifically the railway exhibits at Cultra. That statistic in itself, if accurate, is telling. However, look closer! There are not 38 times as many people in Britain as there are here - there are ten times as many. That means that VERY roughly speaking, for every railway enthusiast per 1000 people here, there are probably nearly 4 in Britain. In the years when the RPSI's May Tour used to run (until Covid), the overwhelming majority of those on board were English. For several decades, especially before Santas became "a thing" it was this tour annually which ALONE kept the RPSI afloat. I did the seating plan for some years, and travelled on all but 3 of them from 1978 until they ended, and on none of them would the TOTAL Irish contingent (north and south combined) filled a single coach. I digress..............! As our transatlantic friends in 'Murrika might say: "Go figure"! Now; it's high time I took my smelling salts and pills, and set about booking online my proposed visits to the Isle of Man, Keithley, Embsay, the NYMR, Swanage and Welsh Highland Railways later this year.............. (good bars in York too, where they know how to piur guinness; but they don't have the beginnings of a clue on such important matters in Lestah....).....

Indeed - tourism figures on any line would convince nobody to reopen it. The Valentia line, despite being one of the most scenic lines this country ever had, and despite being situated in the single most popular area on this island for tourists outside Dublin, would regrettably be one of the least viable to reopen for any purpose. The lack of freight goes without saying. Local population - other than Cahirciveen and Killorglin, no sizeable towns along the route or near it. Plus, a good road (and buses) between Killorglin and Killarney would compete with even a train to there. So let's look at tourism. The vast, vast, vast majority of tourists who venture out there are doing the Ring of Kerry, more often than not on a coach tour. Those driving themselves - they will drive the whole way, because if they took the train to Cahirciveen, they can't go on round the Ring as they don't have their car! Coach tour companies will not switch to rail, as it will add to their overheads and result in their having to either run "empty" from their coach bases in Killarney or Tralee to Valentia or Cahirciveen, but also, probably more importantly, because several of the main tour coach sights and stopping points (and where tour guides and bus drivers get commission) are visitor attractions between Killarney and those places; were the travellers on a train, they'd miss all that. Further, the Ring tour goes right on beyond Cahirciveen, round the south side of the peninsula, which would have to be done by bus. I agree, very nice idea - I've often thought the same about the (even less practical) Achill line. However the big issue is costs, as always. Tourism revenue would be small and very seasonal, but even if it WAS huge, the cost of maintaining the extensive engineering works on that line, plus operating the service all year at a heavy loss, would make the overheads many many times the total revenue, let alone that from tourism alone. You mention the Highland lines in Scotland - these are very heavily subsidised too.

Re Harcourt St: I would not disagree with that; my listing was not exhaustive! Re a tourist line - the revenue from that, I’m afraid, might cover 5% of the cost of running it. I could trot out a whole pile of info on this but it’s not enough.

Indeed; I’d be interested in Cultra figures too. The bigger preservation lines in Britain might get that number in a busy weekend - and per head they’ll spend a lot more too.

I'd forgotten about Tim Cramer's stuff! Yes, you've hit on a few interestring points. "Official Ireland"!!! Ooooooh boy. Yup, I'm sure Britain has "Official Britain" when it comes to such things, but it surely can't be as utterly disinterested as ours! That's another thing I forgot to mention. With much less industrial heritage than britain, and a very dismissive attitude towards railways especially in many rural areas, local policticians have zero interest in railway-themed attractions. About 20 to 30 years ago, I was consulted about three (separate and unrelated) railway heritage schemes, to do the financial stuff. One was based in Belcoo, Co Fermanagh (I sense Galteemore drooling); another was in Tullow, and another potentially involved the Trim - Athboy section of the Kilmessan - Athboy branch. Despite what might have been the beginnings of interest in belcoo, it came to nothing for a number of reasons too convoluted to trot out here. Nobody in any of the three areas, with any sort of local influence, had even the tiniest interest, and asuch things NEED local buy-in. Anyway, I could go on, but I don't want to bore the pants off everyone! Sam Carse's models of the CDR are now in the care of the Donegal Railway Heritage Centre. I think, overall, that small operations like this are the best future anywhere in Ireland; if one looks about in the general area of social and economic history across the board - old restored cottages, OPW sites, archaeologicfal remains - the same picture applies. I will just finish by saying that places like the DCDR, Whitehead, Cultra or the like deserve our collective ongoing support!

Yes, agreed. The RPSI one at Whitehead is essentially subsidised by the RPSI's steam train operations; it does not break even. Cultra doesn't either. Museums of this type, across ireland north and south, unless they are very small and family run, or volunteer-run*, will not be commercially viable. If someone with exceptionally deep pockets came along and finded one, that would get it built; depending on what was put in it as a draw might determine the footfall. The Model Railway Museum at Malahide with which I am involved is subsidised by the local authority. For years the carriage gallery at Downpatrick was financially supported by the local authority. In my time I have been involved in about half a dozen feasibility studies for railway-themed museums across ireland, from Donegal to Clare to Carlow. Once the long-term financial sustainability was being scrutiniesed in each case, end of story. We differ from Britain in three ways, and it is thus often unrealistic in one sense, unfair in another, to compare the two; the heritage market over there is as different to the island of ireland as DCC microchips are from cabbages, or Indonesian puppets from Germolene. The three differences behind this are as follows: 1. For every person on the island of Ireland, 7 million of us, there are 65 million in Brexitland; that means there are almost ten times the number of people there. A very busy Santa season at Downpatrick or on the RPSI's Dublin Santas, or indeed a FULL season's visitors to the DCDR, are fewer in number than a somewhat above average weekend at the Severn Valley or Keighley lines. 2. Not only is the market here much, much smaller, but people here tend to spend less per capita on entertainment / days out of any sort, compared to Britain. Experience of my own - and I do not want to be controversial here, so I'll say this just once - suggests that NI market is particularly geared this way in terms of the all-Ireland picture. Either way, people in England - and I deliberately pick out England as compared to Scotland or Wales, DO spend more on sucvh things. A very large proportion of the more serious donations to the RPSI, in MY time anyway, came from England. Pretty obvious why, in the case of railway preservation - they have the industrial history that we do not have! 3. Quite a few locomotive or railway heritage operations over there have "big money" behind them; the Alan Peglers and Pete Watermans of this world. This has always been the case. In 25 years of being treasurer of both the DCDR and RPSI, I know of two here who were prepared to(very generously) put very large sums of their own personal money into projects. I know of one other who planned to but sadly passed away, and another who is some way along a road like that. But thyat's it. Over the years, there have been substantial projects proposed at Mullingar, Moyasta and other places. Local authority funding is largely absent; it took the RPSI decades to end up with funding for Whitehead - but it runs at a loss. Now, this is not a whinge. This is not anyone's fault. It's just one'o'those things. And, yes, I know it's tiresome oul treasurer-talk, but the sums have to add up; railway enthusiams is powered by emotion, but museums have to powered by cold hard business cases. A Shildon or NRM York type of thing would be amazing here, but it ain't gonna happen; even if it did, there's nothing much left to put in it! (* In this case, this doesn't save Whitehead!)

Certainly is! I'm hoping Fingal Council will fund some more display cabinets, as Fry's British models (mostly LNWR & LMS) still remain in storage..... Very much appreciated, thanks - and you'd be welcome any time, as would all here.

Best not to put ideas in people's heads!

What about the ghost train that goes through a few years later, as per the numerous tales on the Donegal - Killybegs section?

Saw a whole rake of the NIR "wasp-stripe" livery ones at Malahide Model Railway Museum today, behind a blue 112. They look absolutely outstanding.

LOVE that thread title! Someone will be doing a thesis on it in 20 years' time.... OK, here's one for you. Setting aside all the stuff that gets trotted out as "fact" in terms of closed railways being dropped on the Germans, etc etc etc, a new one: what is a closure date? Is it (a) the date of the day on which the last official public train ran? Is it (b) the day after that, namely the first date without public trains? Or, is it (c) something else? For example, imagine this. A line is to close on 31st December 1950, let's say. That day is a Monday, but that line never had a Sunday service, so the last trains run on Saturday 29th. Is that the closure date, or is Monday 31st? First correct answer can buy me a pint.

Yes. Each time new models appear going forward, they’re likely to turn up here!

And the 1990s have returned in Malahide today. But the driver of the Enterprise took a wrong turning and ended up heading for Wexford….

Different thread, yes; the above points are valid, but light years from the oft-quoted idea that "the brits built all the railways to control us" type of thing. That aspect of it is pure nonsense. Government aid, as you mention above, is a different issue.

Absolute beauty.

And there we all were, thinking there are no 141s left in use, no cement wagons still going, an’ the oul Taras finished an’all. Well, I saw them all in Malahide today.

That's so that their mothers can find them in a crowd when they come back from foraging.