Noel

Just Classic.

That looks great, love the atmosphere.

OK, I had never seen that. In ze old days, I had often travelled to Galway on board trains hauled by a single 121. I presume they were turned in those days for the return leg or there might have been some sort of driving coach at the other end. I can't remember.

I must be a fuddy duddy when it comes to my rose tinted railway memories. Forgive the long boring Friday afternoon rambling of one nostalgic for how railways were, or at least what memory thinks they were like. I first became aware of real trains and model trains in the early 60s, and more so in the 70s. There were two types of trains, the CIE ones I travelled on, and the trains I saw in movies and TV. The former were A & C, 141/181, 121 and later 071 loco hauled passenger trains with a wide variety of coaching stock in rakes including old laminates, the fabulous Park Royals, and the modern Cravens. The latter were all UK steam trains, GWR, LMS, LNER and SR, and my earliest exposure to model railways was my fathers Hornby Dublo 2 rail made up of GWR and BR express steam locos. The real goods trains I saw here in the 60s and early 70s, and the goods trains one always saw on TV back then and in old movies were short wheelbase two axel un-breaked wagons of all sorts, and here is the punch line - all goods trains had a break/guards van at the end, as did mainline passenger trains always have a break van at the end of the rake. I grew up with old coaching stock and old freight trains in the brain. I remember well when CIE introduced the 'super train' to much fanfare and very intense advertising campaign (i.e. mk2s), but even back then I thought it was a most ugly livery and not easy on the eye. Who in their right mind would paint a coach roof exposed to severe weathering a daft colour like day glow orange! Then bogie freight started to arrive late 70s and hells bells awful plain boxy looking container wagon - that didn't need a break van at the end, looked incomplete like a fish that had its tail bitten off by a shark. Suddenly all the freight wagons were getting longer and longer and didn't look as well on small layouts with tight radius curves. At least they were largely hauled by the amazing sounding GMs - a sound etched in my childhood memory, a sweet sound no UK loco ever emitted, rather they sounded like quiet tractors. Most of the trains I travelled on were on the former GSWR and MGWR rails, never until the 90s had I been on the east coast lines south to Wexford or north to Belfast. I was on an enterprise that broke down in Portadown station on the Friday of the annual 'drumcree' problem in 1997 at a bygone time when passions were high and I had to spend a very nervous 2 hours in the station waiting for a replacement train. I spoke vit ze german (deutscher) akzent ven I sprech mit ze NIR stazion staf, asking zem wen ze korrect train vud kom tu ze station. It was a most uncomfortable experience but passed uneventfully. Been on a quite a few enterprises since and had very pleasant experiences travelling for work in 1st class - a cut well above IE fare. The food on the Cork early bird now is a joke compared to 15 years ago or earlier, when you could order from a menu, had a linen table cloth and ones food was cooked on the train and served on ceramic plates instead of a cellophane wrapped microwaved bacon buttie. How times of changed. These new railcar trains seem such characterless plastic tubberware bus boxes on rails, that sound like buses not like real trains and have the most uncomfortable seats and ride compared to the coaching stock of yesteryear. When the 201s were introduced in the early 90s with the initial livery that seemed dreamt up by a colour blind graphic designer, visually they didn't 'blow my skirt up', no walkway, just a long box with a slanty bit at each end as a token homage to aerodynamics. Spoke to a driver before boarding one day in 1996 and asked him if the new locos were a big improvement on the 071s - "Huh!" he grunted, "No these heaps of 5x1t are as reliable as a straw bra strap, always breaking down, and have new fangled fly-by-wire software that is always stopping the trains. These junk heaps are not a patch on the reliable 071s". Twas early days for the 201s and the early problems did get snagged out, but they cause some reliability grief in the early years, but at least they sounded like locos - not bendy bus 22ks. My memory of Irish good trains were black liveried A(101),C, 141 and 181s hauling mixed traffic corrugated open wagons, closed vans, short wheel based open flats with boxes and crates strapped down, cattle wagons, cable wagons, fertiliser wagons, beat, and the odd two axel short coach/vans, all terminated with a beefy break van. One christmas my little brother got a train set with heaven forbid, twin axil bogied container flats and four 40ft containers - ugly modern or what I thought - glad santa didn't inflict that one me I thought (ungrateful little brat I was). No buffers, no guards van, and they were so long they overhung the short radius set track so much that the curved platforms couldn't be used!!! Even though 60s and early 70s CIE Irish passenger trains were hauled by GM diesels, there was a nostalgic echo back to the steam days when one saw swirls of steam leaking up from the coach sides and ends at the platforms due to the steam heating on those old trains. All that was missing was 'chuff chuff', but the GMs notching up and down were stirring sounds, like a space ship preparing for warp speed (i.e. 70mph if you were lucky on a CIE mainline express to Cork). So I'm a self confessed model railway dinosaur who considers everything after 071s, Park Royals, Cravens and short wheel base freight wagons, mere modern tubberware buses that have no soul, and from a modelling point of view need very large radius curves that just don't fit into most modern homes in OO gauge. I'm a hybrid that grew up with toy trains modelled on UK steam era as seen on the movies and TV, but grew up travelling on Irish trains hauled by ubiquitous GMs and 001 class locos. Thanks to Murphy Models I have now been able to run proper model Irish trains on my layout instead of repainted BR coaches and orange class 25s and 33s that look nothing like CIE 001 class. I'm sure one day somebody may well be rambling on about the 39000 class 200mph Cork express DMUs and hoping they will soon be released as models with preloaded DCC mk4 chips (i.e. lights, sound, smell modules). Ah well, IR train toilets have holding tanks unlike swiss railways which still use the tracks (i.e. the best run railways in the world). Now the TGV and soon to run EGV, thats a real train one again despite pretending to be a very long rail car. If I could wave a magic wand at the MRSI exhibition I'd buy a new train set with a MM 001 class loco pulling a rake of Park Royals compete with linen table cloths of course! [EOF - end of meandering ramblings]

Weird looking cab/hybrid coach arrangement. Where was the coal stored?

Well they say the swiss have the most efficient railways in the world. But their W/Cs today still exit straight onto the track, in fact you can see the tracks through the bowl. EU land seems to have a paranoia for exceptionally high standards we can't really afford, and some strands of H&S have entered 'la-la land' at the cost of economic development. ROI and revenue is more important than nostalgia, but in IE's case it seems somebody gave them a big piggy bank so long term financial prudence went out the window and they rushed off to the toy shop and emptied the contents of their piggy bank - funded by the public. Ironically had the 'celtic tiger' not over heated and IE not spent the transport 21 money on rolling stock, we might have ended up with a better and more efficient rail network today. When money is scarce it tends to be more wisely spent.

Did she run on gas?

OK having watched the Hitler video on the other tread I now fully understand what happened and why the Mk3s were scrapped. Reason = Financial incompetence on the part of government, IE and consultants = Insane waste of public capital investment

OK - Thank you BK from a newbie. Superb site. Hat's off to you.

I tend to agree. Personally speaking I'd love to see new runs of 001(A) class and perhaps 121, or even reruns of 141/181. It looks like 121 is on the MM radar rather than 001 which is a pity as I think 001s would sell in far greater numbers. 001's should cost a little less to produce due to simpler body form (e.g: one piece body moulding and lack of walkway hand rails which must add to the labour cost significantly). I suspect some may limit their spend on 121s to a pair for running nose to nose, or one with a SF push/pull mk3 set, whereas others might collect fleets of the nostalgic 001s which most of us over 45 will have travelled behind on Irish rails. I am astounded by how many modellers seem to have 141/181 and 071s in double digit numbers. It must be an age thing due to nostalgia having travelled on trains pulled by them. I sound like a broken record and I'm only back in the hobby 12 weeks! I'd buy about four 001s but only two 121s.

That's very impressive growth. Especially in an era where many special interest group boards have had reductions in traffic due to Facebook and Twitter encroaching on folks 'internet' time. BTW, purely as a matter of interest who set up and owns this wonderful forum? Hats off.

Only discovered this nugget today when reading back through the thread. ROFLMAO - just brilliant

Thanks. Any idea why then the IE Mk3s were taken out of service little over halfway through their service life? It also seems a poor waste of capital investment to have virtually put the 201 fleet out to pasture or light freight duties after only 15-18 years in service except for the few Cork/Belfast sets. I'm trying to understand what the economic cost benefit of buying the shinny new 22ks was, especially given their high maintenance cycle requiring a visit to Portlaoise depot every 48-72 hrs or is that an urban myth? That must cost a lot in terms of repositioning trips presumably during the night too. The turnaround times at mainline termini stations of 22ks would be quicker due to the avoidance of loco runaround times at places like Killkenny and Killarney, but hardly a significant cost in time, maintenance of the few passing loops or coupling/uncoupling staff costs. The need for EGVs with loco hauled trains would add a cost compared to rail cars, but one would have thought that would might only come into play when old assets reach their end of the operating life and are replaced by more efficient stock at that time. I can understand the cost/benefit of 22ks v loco sets if starting with a blank sheet, but given the large mk3 fleet and 201 fleet that already existed, it's hard to understand the premature scrapping. UPDATE: Apologies, I see this topic was already discussed at length in the past. http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/2093-MK3-Scrapping

Thanks for posting that link. Some great footage. The EGV could do with some TLC and lick of paint, but the Cravens look superb. Love the wood in the restaurant car.

Hi Glenderg. Thanks, that's interesting. I had mistakenly understood the CIE Mk3s where structurally identical to BR Mk3s with identical loading gauge/dimensions, but 6.5" wider track gauge rather than wider bodies (excluding door differences and different electrics and internal cosmetics). I had understood that the wider gauge had given them a more comfortable ride and greater stability than their BR equivalents running on the narrower 4'8" gauge. You learn something new every day! The various private UK operators are still operating much of their original mk3 fleets at much higher speeds than IRs ever ran at. Was there structural differences between the original BREL built mk3s for CIE and the BR ones? Or perhaps it was the later CIE Mk3s built here under license? I was fascinated why our Mk3s had aged and been deemed end of life in contrast with the UK fleets. Many of our mk3s only saw 20-23 years of service which is nothing for modern coaching stock, and their operating cycles (i.e. usage) was low compared to BR stock. It still 'smells' of poor utilisation of past capital investments in stock. I wonder if poor maintenance or reduced major overhaul cycles had anything to do with the 'structural' integrity issues expressed by 'consultant' source rather than original build specs. Cheers. Noel.

Its bizarre that IR wasted money on all the new 22ks when the mk3s had at least 15 years service life left in them. BR mk3s are due to run for another decade at least despite their introduction in 1972 with HST125. IR might have been wiser to spend the 'Celtic tiger' giveaway money they received in the 00s on track and signalling infrastructure and better timetables. They bought a fleet of powerful 201s only 17 years ago that are hardly used with many lying up. Crazy waste and shameful to see the mk3s being scraped instead of overhauled before they wasted money on the 22ks.

Its difficult to tell until it's finished.

Thanks

Spotted this new Android app for controlling JMRI layout: http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=29591 https://plus.google.com/communities/103043383838285932882

Still pondering what to do with my pair of CIE Lima class 33s which I have from the late 1970s or early 80s. They were supposed to look a bit like 001/A class MVs but compared to todays standards they don't really measure up. Not bad in BR livery as class 33s for their time. They've been in storage for 30 years! Three choices seem to be static display for nostalgia reasons, sell, or rejuvenate with better power units and all wheel pickups, and add the proper A class cab window arrangement and buffer beam. They are not bad runners for 70s/80s but compared to MM 141/181s they are not as smooth, nor as quiet. Decisions, decisions. I might try doctoring one of the bodies this winter and if thats a success then investigate as per DVs suggestions better motors and all wheel pickup.

Not laughing at all Mike. That is a salutary lesson for us all. Glad damage was not too bad. We could have lost our home about 10 years ago due to low winter sun striking a ladies magnifying mirror on the window cill of our bathroom. It burnt a 1/2" deep gouge right across the wooden window frame. It the gouge line was burnt to a crisp. Thankfully there weren't any more flammable items on the window cill at the time or it could have caught fire!!! What was scary is it was only low winter sun which we normally wouldn't expect to be hot, but magnify those rays into one tiny concentrated area at just the right focal distance and ouch! Thanks for posting. PS: Reminds me of my childhood when I setup a small Triang layout on a sun room table (birthday present). The hot sun ruined my two BR MkII coaches which partially melted and warped like bananas. I was not a happy bunny but learnt a lesson that day.

Does anybody know where I might source a mk2 EGV in IR or IE livery (dual white strip, black or orange roof), but not yellow, orange Galway livery? Probably silly timing for such a question given the show next weekend, but no harm asking. Noel

Eh, not quite sure what that means, as in 'dream on' or yes its part of the dance! At a show earlier in the year in Dublin I could hardly get a word in to ask a trader about some of his stock, pricing, etc, as he was engrossed in idle 'chit chat' with some tyre kickers who seemed to be pals of his. After waiting 10 mins to talk to the guy I left and instead bought a rake of coaches the next day over the phone from another vendor for €5 less per coach than the 'chatty' guys show prices!!! He should have watched John Cleese's famous sales training videos 'how not to lose a sale'.

Looking forward to this show. Hope to go Saturday. Do any of the trade stands offer discounts at these shows?

That's a pity. Are there any preserved broad guage railways based down south? All the good stuff seems to be happening up north. I'm totally out of touch with what has been happening in relation to preservation for the past 20 years or so, only catching up now via internet. RPSI seem to be doing really well. Hats off! When preservation 'specials' run on Irish Rail track, do they allow RPSI/ITG personal operate the locos or do they need to be operated by or with the supervision of IE staff?