Noel

Thanks BTB. Glad you like the video. I've been collecting BR outline stock for over 45 years, but delighted to have got some proper Irish trains running instead of the GWR, LMS and LNER stuff I've collected over the years. Paddy Murphy's stunning GM locos and coaches was the trigger that got me back into this wonderful hobby this year. Cheers guys - I'm hoping to progress the scenery over the next 4 months. There is a danger I might spend too much time 'playing' with it instead of working on it. Some wiring to be tidied up, and few more DCC power drops, a bit of wiring on the upper level so I can switch it to DC to run-in locos, and also run old stock that I won't convert to DCC. I have a lot to learn still about all the new techniques and materials that have emerged in the past 20 years. Some of the scenic work, modelling, painting and weathering work by forumites that I have seen on this site is simply inspiring. I am also in awe at what DCC has enabled in terms of layout operation, and DCC sound has me hooked like a baby on hot milk. PS: Yes I have a weakness for long trains, just very very fortunate to have the space for them.

Ireland stunning series whitewash - Nuff said.

How do you fix it Seamus? Do you spray over with matt varnish?

Phenominal. What donors did you elect to use for the Bredins? Ps: what type of fine masking tape do you use?

A busy day testing DCC + sound on Kingsbridge. Its before the scenery work starts, but you get the general idea of train movements on the two mainline through stations. Turn the volume up Forgive video quality, I was trying to hold a phone and operate a cab with the other hand Next time I'll use tripod and camera. I'm loving this move from DC to DCC - 20 years and things have moved on for the better. Now to start the scenery . . .

Thanks IT. Btw, one of the little funnies i discovered with the newer Zimo decoders was difficulty writing to CVs above CV255 on the program/test track with NCE. The workaround was to program CVs above 255 on the main (i.e. POM). They can be read on the test track for verification, but only written to on the main. It's a know incompatibility document in their manual with some DCC controllers. But it had me stumped for a few hours when I was trying to alter volume CVs and duration of sounds like brake screech, etc. Yes totally understand about the LokSound. I will be getting one myself as well on your recommendation, with the EMD 567 prime mover. I digress, but after this weeks tests, DCC a standard - not really. 2014 and folks have to know about binary bits and different BEMF settings. It's like the old days of the motorola 'brick' cell phones, # this, # that, instead of human menus. I love operating DCC but the human interface to setting it up is pathetic - utterly jurassic.

OK so I have now had plenty of time trying out the new version of the 141/181 Zimo sound decoder. I also have LokSound in 071. Both are excellent but quite different in some respects. I couldn't really say one is better or worse then the other, just different. The difference is in the area of driving method and driving style, which will be personal to different operators. Some folk will prefer the directness of driving the LokSound, while others will prefer the Zimo 'Real Drive' experience. This Zimo is quite different from the MSB variants which were an earlier incarnation of the sound program. Having been used to and very happy with the LokSound style of driving, initially I was all at sea with the Zimo, and initially didn't like the long acceleration and deceleration characteristics requiring braking. It took time and I had to make a mental break from the direct driving style of the LokSound (i.e. lower interita lag from throttle changes). The Zimo needs to be driven more like the real thing and stopping distances require planning ahead, just like driving real locos. Its a far cry from the instant non-inertia control experience of DC rotary knobs. Driving the Zimo decoder felt alien for a while, but I persisted and have adjusted my driving style. I am very pleased the way it turned out despite my initial frustration as I adjusted to 'real drive' techniques. It may not be everybody's cup of tea, but the realism of the engine sound matching power rather than mere track speed, the automatic notching, coasting and braking has won me over. I just love the way the brakes work with a coasting train approaching a station. There are a few nice little touches with the sound, for example the loco notches up slightly when brakes are applied if coasting, and notch down again to idle when the brake pressure is reduced after a stop. The horn sound recording is fantastic with push to activate short horn and long horn. The flange squeal sound is the biz on final approach to station or departing over point work and around bends at low speeds. F5 activates light engine mode for shunting and free loco running (i.e. less RPM sound needed and inertia values lower). Typical Departure Sound Sequence F10 Coach Doors Slamming F9 Guards whistle F6 Break release - Air release F2 Short horn – safety warning Notching - Loco starts moving after notching up F8 Flange squeal F3 Long horn on the main Engine Notching up and down automatically and loco accelerates to target cruising speed I prefer the brake sounds on the LokSound recording as they sound a little exaggerated and hence sound better on a model layout. The Zimo brake noise are probably a more accurate sound but lack a bit of 'punch'. Overall though the Zimo engine sounds and notching have impressed, especially the realistic method of driving. You pile the power on and nothing happens for a moment, but slowly she moves off, engine notching up and trashing while heavy train very slowly accelerates. As target speed is gradually attained the loco notches down to cruising power. It took some adjustment, but now I just love it.

Just posting this for fun. I've been pondering required CV settings to tune my locos for correct scale top speeds on the layout for past few evenings. I knocked this up in excel. I have a 3m measured distance on the layout, but this could be altered for any distance, or a complete lap of a layout to get more accurate timings, but it does give a good approximate speed in MPH. If I get time some evening I might knock it up into an iPhone app. The net result was MM 141/181s were too fast on DC (i.e. 90mph) but pretty spot on at scale top speeds of 70-75mph on DCC with CV5 set to max of 255 on a variety of decoders (e.g. Lenz, LokSound, Bachmann, Zimo).

Hi IT. Thanks yes somebody on here told me about the CV54 procedure a few weeks back and it worked a treat. I was just wondering what type of motors are used in MM? Are the cordless or not, etc? Cheers Noel

Hi Folks Does anybody know from a DCC point of view what motor types are used in MM locos (141/181 and 071s)? Most decoders have CVs to allow the motor type to be specified. Thanks Noel

Eeek! Nay'r shall the grubby wheels of this plastic bus with the back breaking seats touch our model rails - a sanctuary for real trains (in jest)

Thanks. I would have hoped DCC standards were designed to take into account the voltage drop in the decoders bridge rectifier ensuring a max of 12v DC was available on output to the motor. But obviously not. Ps. What are we both doing up at this hour! good night

Hi IT. Well that may be correct for your DCC system and your decoders. I discovered that DCC track voltages are not quite standardised across vendors. This evening I ran extensive tests and observed 4 different MM 141/181 locos that all ran at significantly higher top speeds on DC (ie no decoder with 21pin loco supplied backing plate). These DC top speeds were 90mph which was 20% higher then the same locos running DCC, which yielded scale top speeds of 70mph unladen at CV5=255 (i.e. closer to prototype max of 75mph). I then adjusted my NCE track voltage using their recommended procedure from internal 14.1vdc to 15.5vdc on the motherboard (ie using their recommended VREG test point on pcb). Btw, this is NOT the same as the output track voltage but has a corresponding effect on it. After this adjustment, the Zimo decider 141 was achieving a scale top speed of 75mph with CV5 reduced to 210. BUT here's the odd thing, my Lenz decoders on 141/181 remained at the same scale top speeds of 64mph with CV5 still up at 255. In other words the Lenz decoders appear to be delivering the same DC voltage to the motors even though the DCC track voltage was increased, wheras the Zimo was delivering higher DC voltage to the motor! The two questions are why do decoders run locos 20% slower on DCC than the same loco on 12v DC? And why do some decoders output higher DC when DCC track voltage is slightly increased, and others do not (eg Lenz)? Good night

Hi John. I ordered direct from MrSoundguy (i.e: Keith Pearson), mrsoundguyuk@gmail.com . Placed order via email and paid via paypal. Noel

Yes and the older loose coupled unbraked wagons and vans I prefer would have run closer to 30-40 mph. 181 hauled passenger trains would have operated on good mainline sections at speeds of 60-70mph. PS: I don't do freight without a break van at the end! It's a bit like a blunt pencil - pointless without the need for a guards van!

Now that is class. Superb modelling and full of atmosphere. They way you have done the foliage and greenery is simply stunning.

I noticed my MM141/181 locos had significantly greater top speed when run on DC rather than DCC. The DCC max speed was closer to scale, but I'd prefer to be able to achieve this with CV5. I suspected my DCC track voltage was a little low, so I read my NCE manual which suggested increasing the VREG voltage on the controller mother board from 14.1v to 15.5v (via adjustable pot) which would cause a corresponding increase in track voltage. I have no way of correctly measuring track voltage as I only have a basic ammeter. I had timed my MM locos before changing the controller voltage, and afterwards some of them had higher top speeds, but not the Lenz nor LokSound decoder powered models. I'm guess their circuits must produce specific DC voltages rather than just rectify, irrespective of track voltage (i.e. constant DC out irrespective of AC in). This DCC malarky has a lot to teach me yet.

The economies of scale in the larger UK market seem to make such schemes feasible. Their overall market is roughly 15-20 times the size of ours, and their market for model trains disproportionately higher again due to UK consumers long standing and more established interest in the hobby. I like the idea but doubt the numbers will stack up here for a loco (001 or 121). Less so perhaps for rolling stock because a minority of the market here are discerning specialist modellers with specific freight interests (forumites excluded of course), unlike the general public modeller, or toy train collector who want to own and run what they and their children see which is and was predominantly passenger trains. In the future that memory may be Luas, Dart and 22k bus fleets. . With some possibly interested in Cork CAFs and Belfast Enterprise train sets, Ireland's last loco hauled real passenger trains. The more I read this interesting thread I think I would change my vote to "I'd prepay MM for 001 or 121 locos in advance", but not a crowd scheme. It would be more likely to happen and MM have the track record.

I was surprised at the results myself. I just needed to know for sure what the models actual scale speed was. So I measured out 3m of straight track on the layout and put two posts at each end for stop watch timing gates. I timed three sample runs and averaged the times. The MM 071 models cannot achieve their scale top speed of 90mph.

How do folk calibrate their DCC locos to run at maximum scale speeds? I spent some time this evening using a stop watch timing locos as various CV5 settings through a 3 meter long section of the layout and trying to scale up the measurements to calculate speeds in MPH. If my calculations were correct with a Lenz silver out of the box (i.e. CV5=255) I was getting a scale speed of between 64 and 70mph on the 141/181 locos I tested. Out of curiosity I ran at the seven available speed steps in 1-28 step mode to see what scale speed was achieved at each throttle setting in steps of 4 (i.e. 0,4,8,12,16,20,24,28). I think the prototypical 141/181 may have only had eight throttle settings. Also compared with an MM0071. The MM locos seem to run out of the box at excellent scale speeds and also excellent low speeds on startup. The old generation Hornby guff I was used to 30/40 years ago started off at scale speeds of 25mph!!!

Very nice. Achieving that quality hand made is some achievement. Looks superb.

Very interesting thread. The 'delicate' part is the retail dealers who are and have been MMs direct customers. We are only indirectly. Not sure how they might feel about MM supplying and initial batch of locos direct to us consumers (i.e. their customers). It seems from reading the thread so far that demand for an A class and 121 are clear favourites, with the 'A' having a 2/1 following. From a commercial point of view, given the past proliferation of A class locos all over the Irish rail network, pulling such a wide variety of stock, I guess folk are likely to buy more 'A' class models than 121s. But I could be misreading that. Many would buy a pair of 121s to double head nose to nose, but I suspect some folk might buy 4 or more 'A' class 001s. There is no doubt the 121 is very distinctive looking compared to the simplicity of an A class body. Again from a commercial point of view I would expect that an A class model body could be slightly less expensive to manufacture and assemble than a 121. The A body could be in one piece, whereas the 121 may probably be in three pieces like 141/181s, and then there is the fiddly labour intensive bit of sticking the walkway hand rails on. The existing 201 class should actually cost a little less than 071 as its a simpler body form to injection mould compare to the intricate shapes of 071, 141/181s with their walkway hand rails. Personally I prefer the look and nostalgia value of 121, but the 'A' class might be a more versatile model operationally on a layout as well as one of the most dominant locos of my childhood memories. I'd certainly be happy to pay up front for a few MM 'A' class locos - great track record, quality, precision and stunning runners.

This is a great idea in principle. Two thoughts. First choice of liveries could be a problem as economies of scale would preclude doing say three runs in different liveries. Secondly there are two possible 'crowd' scheme options, one where folk are not shareholders and simply prepay for loco stock, alternatively where folks prepay what is in effect equity in a scheme. In the former the sole 'owner' earns revenue going forward, wheras in the second it is shared by the group members (ie stock or dividends), but this can be costly to administer. Just a thought.

Yes but only if locos are centre drive (ie dual driving bogies), dual flywheel, all wheel drive and all wheel pickup with lights, 21pin DCC socket and speaker box, same quality as MMs A class black & tan Steam Mogul 2-6-0 DCC ready (direct drive with flywheel + Stay alive) 121 class (option for dummy non driving 121 for pairs)