mfjoc

John Allen was considered a pioneer in his day particularly in the development in scenery and photography. The layout was mainly a stage for him to take beautiful photographs. John died in 1972 and the layout was destroyed in a fire shortly after. A more modern emphasis in layout design is an American track planner called Bill Beranek. Among the principals he espouses are: Walk Along Mainlines Narrow Shelves Long Mainline or Branch-line Runs Trains Traveling Through Scenes Once View Blocking Peninsulas Staging Yards (both hidden & open) Prototypical Operations It’s worth watching him on YouTube, you will learn a lot. Even if you have a lot of space it does make sense to start with something smaller and incorporate into a larger later. It has taken a year for me to get my layout to get to the operational stage, i.e. baseboard built, track laid and wired but no scenery yet. I retired a few years ago but would never have found the time to get that far while I was working.

From what I have seen on Youtube and from being a suscriber to Model Railroader in the past is that the americans either have huge layouts in their basements operated by a gang of people or short lines but still with operating potential. Here Dugort Harbour and Patricks layout before he had to dismantle it are closest to that concept. A single track branch with multiple stations. Scenic developement on both are way above anything I hope to achieve. The initial Castle Rackrent terminus was small but every siding and every spot had a purpose so at exhibitions the passenger train didn't just shunt back and forward. Wagons were spotted at the dock, the mill the good siding etc. He used home made Jackson couplings. The big advantage of a smaller layout is that you can change era just by changing the rolling stock. From 1900 up to the mid 1970's the railway infastructure hardly changed at all. Track layouts, signalling, buildings in a station could be set in 1900 or 1970 or even 1980, when a branch line closed the junction track layout hardly changed and often the stub was used for storing old rolling stock. The only thing that was substantially different was the rolling stock. From the mid 70's on things did change substantially with CTC, Railplan 80 etc. Before Paddy and IRM arrived on the scene I bough a large amount of american HO equipment as I was not happy with the running qualities or Hornby or Lima. It would be a huge job to change but maybe some time in the future the W&DJR will become the Denver Terminal and I can watch my Californial Zeypher leave Union station and head up the front range. Rule number one!

Following on from my latest post in the layout section I thought a general discussion on layout operation would be interesting. Has anyone else on the forum got a layout that has more than one station and runs prototypically based operating sessions? Does anyone go to operation sessions on a friend’s layout? Are people interested in model railway operations? I love models of any type, ships, planes, cars etc but there is something about model trains that has been etched into my DNA by my grandmother who bought me my first train set at six years of age. I love looking at them, but I also love that model trains can run on a model railway layout. One of my heroes was the late Richard Chown. Richard was an Englishman living in Scotland who modeled Irish railways. His 0 Gauge Castle Rackrent layout was amazing, The layout was based on an imaginary branch of the WL&WR that connected with the MGWR and set around 1900. The layout was a single track main line with multiple stations and two branches one to the MGWR and a market branch. During the 1970’s and 1980’s he would take various parts of the layout to exhibitions. Even at exhibitions it was always operated in a prototypical manner with block signals and bell codes. Later on he built a house with a big enough basement to set up the whole layout on a permanent basis. He used to hold operating sessions regularly and could keep up to 12 operators busy. I was lucky enough to see the whole layout in operation at one of his famous Ceilidh’s and had to be dragged kicking and screaming out of the hall. Scenery was important to him as well but secondary to operation. Another layout I was lucky to see in operation was Sam Carse’s County Donegal layout. This was purely operational with 3 rail Hornby 00 track but with hand built rolling stock. Sam also operated using bell codes and block working. I assume that the biggest constraint is that anything more than a branch terminus takes up a lot of space. I am lucky that part of the deal when we downsized was my garden room.

The layout is designed primarily for operation. I am currently drawing up a draft sequence timetable based on the rolling stock that I have collected over the last twenty years, what is expected to be produced soon and CIE operating practices from the 1980’s. This is the operation schematic North Staging Junction Mine Yard South Staging Branch Terminus Passenger Terminus Locomotives I currently have 2 x 001 class, 2 x 071 class, 2 x 121 class, 3 x 141 class, 1 x 181 class, 1 x Hunslet which is probably not enough so I am eagerly awaiting the production of the C class from IRM in supertrain livery. I have nine staging tracks, I hope this is enough but it may not be possible to run every train in each operation session. Passenger trains Mk2 6 coach max train length Mk3 6 coach max train length Branch passenger Dutch van plus 2 max - length GSV plus 3 Weekend extra GSV plus 5 max Special Hunslet plus 6 NIR mk2’s Future Night mail? One train based overnight in Belview passenger station, one train based in north staging, Branch train to include morning and evening through workings from Branch terminus to Belview passenger station. The NIR train will substitute for the mk’3 until they are available from either Murphy or IRM. Through Trains Ballast Van plus 9 laden hoppers plus van North to South or vise versa If stopping to drop ballast will need Engineering possession As it is always laden it will run in one direction only using one of the middle staging tracks Tara Mines 8 wagon train North to South and return Lisheen Mine 8 wagon ‘dickie tara’ North to South and return Gypsum Train Up to 12 laden hoppers Dublin to South Esso train 8 tanks plus barrier north to south and return Loose coupled trains Beet train Up to 10 wagons plus 30 ton van pick up from Branch Terminus and Junction and on to south staging and return empty. PW train Pallet vans H vans flats lomac and opens plus 30 ton brake van Dublin to any station to pick up or drop off materials Oil Train 3 wagon plus van South to loco shed . In the short term these wagons are being used for supplying the Magnesite plant. Liner trains Mixed Liner 6-9 2 axle wagons Pallet cement, sundries,fertilizer,containers North to Junction and Belview yard. Container train 6-8 bogie flats North to Belview yard and return Bulk Cement train 7-10 wagons North or South to Junction and return Fertiliser train 6 bogie wagons North or south to Belview yard and Junction Dolomite 6 laden wagons Quarry to Drinagh 6 empty wagons Drinagh to quarry In the short term the gypsum hoppers will substitute for dolomite wagons. Laden and empty wagons will be restaged before each operating session. Magnesite & oil 6 plus 3 laden Drinagh to south 6 plus 3 empty South to Drinagh To run the above trains I am only short a Mk 3 set, a GSV, a few extra Cravens or Park Royals, pallet cement wagons, 20’ CIE oil tanks, another 30 ton brake van and a few extra locos.

To me, Dart Underground, four tracking to Malahide, a spur to the airport and extending the Luas from Finglas to the Airport would probably cost a lot less and make more sense than the Metro as currently planned.

The same train passing through the junction while the branch passenger waits in the bay platform.

Tracklaying is now complete. As with the previous layout I used Midwest cork roadbed glued to the plywood baseboard. The Peco track is then screwed to the cork using 6mm x 1,2mm screws bought on Temu. Most of the track is reused from previous layouts. Indeed most of the electrofrog points are at least 30 years old. Droppers recycled from telephone wire are soldered to the rail and connected to a ring main of 1.5mm square recycled household wiring using clip on connectors. I am reusing the Roco multimaus DCC controller. The finished track plan is almost identical to the above sketch. The oil siding is now a carriage siding and doesn’t extend into the corner. The crossover on the main line in Belview is facing rather than trailing and only one siding for bulk cement at the Junction. I have unboxed most of my Irish rolling stock that I have accumulated over the last twenty years. I am enjoying test running my sound equipped Hunslet and all the other stock. I have never got around to doing any scenic work on any of my previous layouts so now I have many buildings to assemble and scenery to build. The first area I will try is the end baseboard where the bridge and the quarry are situated. As the main focus of the layout is operation as opposed to scenic accuracy, my first priority is to devise a working timetable for the layout and available rolling stock that would be appropriate for 1980’s Ireland. In my world the Hunslets did get beyond Inchicore! Due to the withdrawl of timber bodied stock 102 and the NIR mk. 2’s will remain on loan to CIE until the Mk. 3’s are available. Staging yard . The three tracks on the left are the south staging representing connections to the port and also Cork and Limerick. There will be a bridge over the entrance track to form a scenic break from the passenger station. The two middle tracks can be accessed from either end. As these tracks form a reversing loop they are isolated for reversal of polarity. There is also a programming track. The four tracks on the right represent north staging or Dublin. 102passingmine.mp4 The same train passes the dolomite mine and through the soon to be built tunnel , across the liftout flap and into the Junction. Belview230726.mp4 102 has left the passenger station and heads a train of 6 coaches passing the yard at Belview junction230726.mp4

In CIE days we never refered to locomotives as 'Traction' . They were always 'Locos' or 'Engines' By the 1980's maintenance was only carried out in Inchicore in Diesel 1, the old steam errecting shop ( major overhaul), Diesel 2 also known as the ramps ( body repairs) or the Running shed ( daily and weekly service checks). As part of the DART works Connolly shed was upgraded for service checks on locos working the Belfast, Rosslare and Sligo lines. A failure anywhere else and the loco was hauled to Inchicore.

The trees are probably younger than the railway?

The GM engine had a tendency to dump its coolant if it was shut down and let go cold. After the first oil crisis boilers were fitted to keep the engine warm but these were not reliable and drivers tended to leave the engine idling overnight rather than risk a restart.

I'd love an E421 class but I am not sure how many they would sell. It would be very hard to make a reliable model of a Deutz that would be heavy enough to pull anything, they were so small. Most likely could be a D 301 class which would probably be able to share a chassis with an 08 and had a somewhat similar body. Again I am not sure how well it would sell as all were out of service by the 1970's.

Did they ever get even as far as Heuston or Inchicore? I have never seen a picture of any of them at inchicore but stand to be corrected. I do actually have a memory of them on Rugby specials at Lansdowne road during the 70's when I went to Internationals with my dad.

I though I would bump this thread over six years on as the Park Royals and Hunslets are on the way, leaving only the ICRs and the 800 class outstanding of announced models. Maybe changing the title to 1960's to 1990's might be more appropriate as this is where I believe most peoples interest lies. Laying out my own cards, if it ran on tracks in Ireland in the 1980's then I will buy for my layout, but not to sit on the mantlepiece. I really wish to support the manufacture of Irish railway models but my budget is not unlimited and so will not be buying the ICRs, 800's or Darts. Of Noel's original list only the Park Royals have been announced and almost delivered. In addition project Bulleid has delivered a large range of wagon stock including H vans, Palvans, opens, grain vans,flats and oil tanks. We have also received the Hejan Esso oil tank wagons. IRM have hinted that the next new announcement in October will be a C class which would be very logical and I think would sell very well. it could be produced in a large variety of liveries for both CIE and NIR. Hopefully the mainline Park Royals be produced. After than I think an 80 class could be on the cards as I also think this would sell well. Some of the developement costs should already be covered by the mark 2 range. Next in line would be a BR mk1 GSV. From the mid 70's on, every train of Cravens or Park royals needed a GSV and again the developements costs could be shared if accurascale produce their own range of Mk1s. It looks like the Murphy family are continuing with the production of the mk 3's so hopefully they will come out sometime before I die. Enda's 30 ton printed brake van solves the problem of what to run at the end of a train of Bulleids, maybe IRM will produce a 20 ton van? I think we can ignore the idea of a working model of Dick. After these I am struggling to see what else would sell in sufficient numbers to justify developement costs. Apparently a carriage costs nearly as much as a locomotive to develop and produce, but sells for a fraction of the price. I would love to see a model of a 2400 class buffet car as almost all non AC mainline trains had one in their consists. It would go well with the Cravens and Park Royals but as most trains only had one would it sell well enough to justify production? Would an AEC, railcar set sell well? Yes it could be produced in GNR and CIE versions but could it be sold unpowered as a model of the push pulls? Maybe a full train of GSR coaches to go behind Meadhbh? On the freight side maybe a pallet cement wagon, bogie bulk cement wagon or ammonia tanker as some running gear is already produced. Other alternative would be one of the preserved steam locos to pull the RPSI stock.

Much of the testing in the Lab in inchicore in the 1980's was the analysis of lube oil for diesel engines for all the CIE companies.

Did the Hunslets ever get beyond Lansdowne road or anywhere west or south of Dublin?

Is there anyone in the Dublin or Wexford areas who would like to share an order for Pallet Vans? The wallet is fairly empty at the moment as I have just paid for my Hunslet and Park Royals I fancy a set of pallet vans in brown even though they are outside my modelling era and would like a set of three but with both types of end pressings. My proposal is to share an order for IRM1291 and 1292. I would be happy to go ahead and buy the two sets and then meet the person to transfer over and split the costs. I am not fussy which end type I keep two of. If anyone is interested please send me a PM

Last nights IRRS film show had a clip from Joe St Leger showing a tar train going from Mallow to Quartertown

Almost another year has gone by since my last post. We finished doing up the new house in June but it took another few months to clear out all the “stuff” that was stored in the railway room. I finally got possession in September, installed lighting and sockets and then got started on the benchwork. This is a rough sketch of the track plan. After a lot of thought I had a pretty clear idea of what I wanted to achieve. The new layout is similar operationally to the old layout but in twice the space. The available space is approximately 15’ X 11’. The baseboard is built around the walls with a peninsula up the middle. There is a lift out section in front of the door. Trains will leave north staging (Dublin) and arrive first at the junction (Ross Junction) where there is a trailing connection to the branch terminus (Drinagh). The junction has two through platforms and a bay platform with run around for the branch passenger. There will also be a siding for sundries, cement and fertilizer. I also hope to fit in a siding or two in for a bulk cement silo. Drinagh will have a siding for sundries, cement and fertilizer and a private set of sidings with runaround for dolomite, magnesite and oil. In the future I will probably operate this with a private owner shunting loco. The position of the magnesite plant( in practice a Walthers grain silo), is designed to distract from where the main line comes out from behind the backscene. Heading south the main line leaves the junction and goes into a tunnel and around a curve. Emerging from the tunnel there is a trailing connection to a dolomite ore quarry cut into the hillside with two sidings. The line then crosses over a wide slow flowing river and around a curve into the yard of the main terminus station (Belview standing in for Waterford). From here to the main passenger station the line is double track with a crossover halfway along. On the up side is a three track container or marshalling yard with a headshunt and a short siding for palletized traffic. On the down side is an oil siding and connection to the two track loco shed and turntable. Also on the up side the line to Belview quay branches off curving around to go under a bridge and into south staging. At the passenger station the main arrival and departure tracks go through the backscene to the far corner. And will be long enough for full length passenger trains. A bay platform is for shorter trains and also doubles up as a continuous run. There will be nine tracks in the staging yard, three for south staging, four for north staging and two tracks in the middle that can be used for either. As these tracks form a reversing loop they will be isolated for reversal of polarity. There will also be a programming track in the yard. The main baseboard is all one level apart from one short dipped section for the bridge. The main track baseboard is 12mm ply. Baseboard height is 1400mm and the 2 x 2 supports finish 300 mm above this to which 300mm x 6mm MDF is fixed for the backscene. Much of the plywood and 2 x 1 PAO has been recycled from the old layout. Baseboard construction is now almost complete and I am now starting on tracklaying.

RIP Paddy Very sad news. Its an understatement to say has left the Irish railway modelling community an enormus legacy. I was modelling american HO because of the quality of UK and "irish" outline models available at the time. Then Paddy brought out the 141/181s and the rest is history. Condolences to his family.

@Mayner You didn't mention that the GNR AEC railcars were almost identical to the CIE ones and some of these were painted in UTA and NIR liveries. Also many of the park royals were wired to run as intermediate coaches, The main missing coach would be a 26xx buffet car which ran on most railcar or loco hauled services from the 50's to the 80's but I'd say there's very little chance of one of them being produced. On balance I think you are right about the more popular appeal of the 80 Class over the AEC railcars as a lot more people are still around who remember them. I still think a C class or a GSV or both would outsell an 80 class. All of Murphy Models effort seems to be concentrated on the DART+ at the moment so it would be interesting if IRM were to leapfrog them and produce their own range which would have the advantage of crossover with the much larger UK market.

It's good to hear that IRM are not going to give up on the Irish market. Yes prices have gone up but I don't see that as the most important issue. I really don't want to be negative and am possibly straying into the area of business decision making but I think IRM may have chosen to produce models of the wrong prototypes and that this could be a factor in the current fall off in sales. The Hunslets are very nice but only three were built, they didn't last long and as far as I know never went south or west of Dublin, but at least there are matching coaches and wagons for them to haul. The 800's never left the Cork line (maybe one got to Limerick once?) were out of service by the early fifties apart from hauling a few Bullied open wagons around Thurles. There's nothing else RTR available that they ever hauled, certainly no matching coaches. The ICR's are iconic, if you want to model the current tramway that is Iarnrod Eireann they're perfect. All three are beautiful models and are for sale at very reasonable prices, so if you want a model to leave in the box, put on a shelf or run occasionally on a layout they are perfect. I do hope they sell well, but is an individual likely to buy more than one or two unless they are a collector? The A Class sold out very quickly and I would imagine thay very few customers bought only one. It looks like all the wagon and coaching stock produced so far have sold well, apart from the magnesite wagons which had to be heavily discounted to shift. Obviously an individual will buy more than one coach or wagon and the discount for multiple purchases is an incentive. On a more positive note the following are prototypes that I think would sell in multiple quantities that would provide a return on investment. The C class were long lived, went everywhere, were owned by both CIE and NIR and there's lots of matching rolling stock for all eras. AEC railcars were owned by CIE, GNR, UTA,and NIR and lasted from the fifties to the eighties (as push-pulls). The Park Royals can be used as intermediates. After 1972 no train of laminates, park royals or cravens would be complete without a GSV. A re-run of the A Class might also be considered. I am keeping my fingers crossed.

Further to Fran's post with regard to the production of new Irish models going forward I completly see where he is coming from. I am in a similar situation to Georgeconna in that my shelves are full with multiple copies of almost everything that has come out so far form both IRM and Saint Patrick. I do hope to get the new layout operational in the next few months and actually use them for the purpose for which they were intended. I never in my wildest dreams though that I would be able to aquire the collection of such beautiful models that I have. I am pretty sure I am probably your typical customer. In my sixties, empty nester either retired or close to retirement, with some spare cash to spend on a hobby. I was given a train set as a kid and grew up travelling on a railway that ran an enormous variety of rolling stock. BUT Even I am close to saturation point. I still have the Park Royals, Hunslet and Palvans to come but I will be taking a pass on the ICRs, Dart and 800's. I'd love a few C classes, Mk3's and GSV's and I do think that these would be financially viable. So I live in hope but perfectly understand if they don't appear anytime soon or at all. I am so happy with what I have. The other thing to consider is that our generation is dying off and a large quantity of high quality boxed second hand models are likely to become available over the next few years. It is hard to see where new customers are going to come from as none of my kids generation have any interest in model trains. I am working on the next generation through Thomas the Tank Engine and my own layout which might give some hope for the future.

Bear in mind that by 1973 the transplant program was almost if not fully complete and A and C class reliability had gone through the roof. One of the main reasons for so many pilot workings was to cover for A and C class breakdowns.

I have great memories of north wall transfer freights heading up the bank passing the then IRRS premises in Dromcondra in the early 70's. On Wednesday Library nights you knew by sound if a 101 class was either in the lead or banking. The sound of the Sulzer engine working hard was so different to anything else running at the time. Also I heard them more than saw them as there were no windows looking out on the track. If you wanted to look out you had to open the emergency exit. So yes I am well into my sixties!

Sorry Fran I feel exactly the same. I have ordered one Hunslet with sound but I can't justify either an 800 class or ICR as I want my models to operate on my 1980's layout, not sit on a shelf. I too will order at least four C class locos when they eventually appear.