hexagon789

I found this photo somewhere a while back and saved it. Unfortunately I can't remember where I found it and I wondered if anyone could identify the location: Regards, Ben.

(Had a search on this site, but I could only find an existing thread on livery nicknames, not class nicknames.) I've heard a few but wondered if anyone could add to the following - 121 Class - Yanks 141/181 Class - Small/Baby GMs 071 Class - Big GMs 201 Class - River Class 22000 Class - ICRs Does anyone know of any other nicknames for the above or for other classes? Regards, Ben.

A word of caution if I may - I've been informed that certainly as regards the later era (1970s/80s and onwards) formation guides, the rakes are not necessarily prototypically accurate. In some cases it appears they have substituted the correct vehicle types for what is actually available, while this may not affect the 1950s/60s-era guides I felt I should make people aware of this. Regards, Ben.

Actually it appears I'm wrong. I must admit 2,970hp seemed quite high, it would appear that the figure is actually likely 1850kW (about 2,480hp). Oh and wikipedia is wrong about BR Class 66s having 3,300hp rated engines. They are in fact 3,200hp exactly the same as BR Class 67s and the IÉ 201 Class. Nevertheless, despite answering my own question I do appreciate the above replies. Thanks all.

Thank you for the detailed reply, though it was only the power-at-rail rating I was looking for which I think must be the 2,970hp figure.

Well this is weird, I replied to this a few hours ago, but the reply is gone, bizarre. I shall try again. Sounds about right. I know a typical UK loco can provide about 475kW (nearly 640hp) for HEP. Thank you, it seems they share D43 traction motors and a BR Class 66 is given a power-at-rail of 2,240kW (just over 3,000hp). Therefore I wonder if 2,970hp is actually the relevant figure for an IÉ 201 then, allowing for its slightly less powerful engine.

Been wondering for a while what the power-at-rail of a 201 Class is. I've looked in various ITG books and the most recent Platform 5 Irish Railways book but none give the power-at-rail for a River class. Would anyone happen to know what it is? I've seen 2,970hp traction listed on Wikipedia but I assume this is simply what you can get out of the 3,200hp for moving the train and not the actual power-at-rail rating? Thanks in advance, regards Ben.

Does anyone know what the original plan or indeed formation of Mk3 sets was originally in the mid-eighties? From what I gather originally there were only three or four Firsts. The ITG book from 1987 describes 7140 as a 72-seat Standard but I've seen two photos of it with First Class markings, though the seating appears not to line up with the windows, as though it was a possibly a 72-seat First, with the other three vehicles being 64-seaters, though it could be just the photo. Was the original set-up EGV+Buffet+Standards on non-Cork line services (if indeed the Mk3s operated any such services early on) and EGV+First+Buffet+Standards on Cork services? Just curious, thanks for any info.

Indeed, some appear to have been very slow. Interesting, are they still the only Class to have had speedometers or do locos operating on the mainline require them now?

Thank you for the reply, interesting to read that it wasn't only the '800s' capable of higher speeds. I can understand the uprating of the 001s for that reason then. Does this also mean that Dublin-Cork was never higher than 70 pre-war then?

I was discussing Maedh with a friend and how she managed I think it was 96mph and sister Tailté 95mph and I mentioned that the linespeed on the Dublin-Cork was 70mph in the post-war period and that together with coal shortages and subsequent dieselisation meant the 800s never really got a chance to show their true potential as such. Anyway, he commented that it was strange that the GSR imposed a 70mph limit when their locos could do 95, and I said well the 70 limit came first surely, then I recalled an article about Ireland's early diesels which gave some mention of the sort of timings one had in the '50s and I noticed this sentence: "The Dublin-Cork double track mainline, 165.3 miles long, and which, although well engineered, in the post-war period had an overall 70 mph speed limit imposed." Maybe I'm over-reading it but the word 'imposed' suggests it may once gave been higher? So to my point - was the limit on the Dublin-Cork higher than 70 pre-war, and if so what was it? I'm thinking 75 possibly 80, my friend thought 90 but I think that's too high. Of course when one starts with one simple question, it quickly morphs into a whole heap of questions and so I'd be very grateful if someone could answer any of the following: 1. The maximum on the Dublin-Cork pre-war 2. When and why it was raised to 75 3. When it was raised to 90 4. When it was raised to 100 (I believe May 1995 but I cannot find where I got that date from) 5. Were the Mk2Ds ever permitted higher than 75? The Harris book on Mark 2 coaches suggests they were introduced running at 80mph on Dublin-Cork on a 2.5 hour timing, I don't know whether this was simply the plan or if it actually happened. 6. The actual service maximum for a 121, I've seen 77mph quoted by some sources, 75 by others. 75 seems logical to me, 77 more liked the maximum the gearing will allow. 7. The actual service maximum for a 141, I've seen 75, 76 and 80 8. The actual service maximum for a 181, I've seen 75 and 80 service as well as a design maximum of 89? 9. The maximum for a 001 'A' Class, books suggest 75 for all originally biut some had the traction motors rewound and were uprated to 80mph for the 'Enterprise'? I thought that the Mk2 stock and indeed the Dublin-Belfast mainline was 70 maximum until the De-Dietrichs were introduced in the early '90s. 10. I therefore assume that the 071s were unable to 'officially' run at 90 until the Mk3s were introduced and whenever the Dublin-Cork mainline was upgraded for 90mph running? Thank you for you patience with this horrendously long-winded post and thanks for any replies. Regards, Ben

Thank you, that's absolutely perfect - a good clear photo of the bogie detail. Looks as though the Suburban Mk3s, at the very least, were equipped with BR WSP, which makes sense as they were a later build after all.

At long last the article is almost finished, however a couple of other questions have arisen in the interim. They aren't really related to internal layout but as they are to do with the Mk3s it seemed logical to add them to this thread. 1. When and what was the first service run with Mk3 stock? 2. When were the Mk3s permitted to run at 100 mph as opposed to 90 mph? 3. What type/types of Wheel Slide Protection were they fitted with? BR Mk3s were fitted with one of two systems originally. The prototype vehicles, Mk3a LHCS and early production HST trailers were equipped with a Girling-designed WSP system. The remainder of, and indeed majority, of HST trailers, all Mk3 sleepers and the Mk3b LHCS were equipped with a British Rail-designed WSP. Some have been fitted with a more modern system from Knorr Bremse since privitisation but both orginal systems remain in use. I assume the IÉ Mk3s had either the Girling or BR system or possibly both were used depending on batch/vehicles type unfortunately I can't find out which system(s) was used and decent quality photos of bogies are proving elusive. Thanks for any replies.

Thanks for the reply, the formations are very helpful. 2007/8 formations woukd be welcome too if it's not too much trouble.

I've come up with a few more questions I'm afraid! When were the Composites reseated from 16F/52S to 32F/36S and is there a particular reason why in the original full Firsts (7107, 7110, 7157) and the Composites that IÉ settled on 2+2 seating when both the Mk2d First Class and that of British Mk3s was 2+1? And why were the CityGold vehicles converted? Was it decided that the 2+2 Full Firsts weren't really suited to Business traffic or something? Thanks for any answers/ideas, regards Ben.

I can PM or e-mail you the article if you like, whichever is more convenient. Be warned it's my first article so it's rather long and wordy! I can also give you a fairly exhaustive list of formations to go with it as well if you care for it.

That's immensely helpful hurricanemk1c as are the formations. Thanks a lot, the reseating in 2007 makes a lot more sense to the other arrangements I've found. Was 7147 used on specific services because of its status a a Disabled Standard or just as any other Standard? Seems a bit strange that 7107 was converted from 64-seat First to 72-seat (36/36) Composite to 64-seat Standard. And thank you for including Mk2d formations as well, that helps with the Mk2d bit if the article.

It's primarily for a group of friend who are interested in railways, I've already done an article on the British Rail ScotRail 47/7 push-pulls, but I do plan to make the article available online at some point. I've being doing a bit more research and I got another vehicle to add to the mixture 7110, I'm curious as to whether this vehicle was converted from its original 64-seat full First layout to a 72-seat Standard as several sources suggest or whether it remaimed a 64-seat possibly declassified First like 7107 and 7157 seem to have. The trouble is for ages you can't find any information then when you find lots of information it all conflicts with each other, c'est la vie I guess. But thanks to all those who have replied so far, the photos of 7107, 7147 and 7157 are both helpful and interesting but I'm now even more confused as 7107 seems to have possibly remained a 64-seat full First? I'm still hopeful someone can perhaps explain it all and what actually was the arrangement for these 4 vehicles in 2004. EDIT: just seen the above post, I started typing this reply before it was posted but I'll leave it up as is with this edit for clarification.

That would be great, thanks. I did did think that the Executives were reserved for specials and the like but also wondered about the operationall convenience of having two coaches that were used only on occasion, but your comment helps confirm what I previously thought.

I'm currently compiling a list of Irish Coaching Stock for use in any article I'm planning to right and while I've had no real issues with the Mk2d stock I've found a few discrepancies with certain Mk3 vehicles that I'm hoping someone can clear up for me. For reference I'm looking for the state of the following vehicles in about 2004: 7107 - was this an Open Composite seating 36F/36S or an Open Standard seating 64? 7147 - was this an Open Standard seating 72, 66 or 64 plus a wheelchair space? 7157 - was this an Open First seating 64 or an Open Standard seating 64? Additionally I'm curious as to how the two Executive Mk3s were used. I believe they were used in specials and so-called "Executive" trains but I assume they were also used in normal service trains? If so what services were they typically used in and as which type of vehicle, I've seen reference to 7162 being used as a dining car, is this when used in Executive trains or in lieu of a CityGold vehicle or something? Finally I've got a vague idea of how the seats were generally formed but if someone could let me know if the following is broadly correct: Dublin-Cork CityGold services: Typically Generator Van-CityGold-Buffet-5/6 Standards Other Dublin-Cork: Typically Generator Van-Composite-Buffet-4/5 Standards Dublin-Galway/Waterford/Tralee/some Limerick services: Typically Generator Van-Composite-Buffet-4/5 Standards Dublin-Westport: Typically Generator Van-Standard-Buffet-3 Standards Thanks in advance for any answers or clarifications anyone can give. Regards, Ben