GNR Railcars

[Branchline121]

I know there’s been an awful lot of questions about railcars recently but I’ve just been wondering what’s the story with the Non-AEC/BUT railcars. I’m mainly talking about Railcar A and Railcar G, which don’t seem to be related at all. I’ve tried a search for them, but only photos have came up, and any info would be appreciated. Here’s a picture of the both of them:

 

[Mayner]

Railcar A was basically an experimental railcar with a driving cab at each end originally powered by an AEC engine mainly used on the Scarva-Banbridge line.

Railcar B similar in appearance to A was diesel electric apparently unsuccessful.

Railcar F & G were lightweight diesel trains with Atkinson Walker power units used mainly in GNR day on Dublin suburban trains and the final development of the GNR-Atkinson Walker railcar.

Diesel Dawn provides a detailed history of Irish diesel railcar and locomotive development and includes drawings and photos of the different GNR railcars.

[Lambeg man]

2 hours ago, Branchline121 said:

I know there’s been an awful lot of questions about railcars recently but I’ve just been wondering what’s the story with the Non-AEC/BUT railcars. I’m mainly talking about Railcar A and Railcar G, which don’t seem to be related at all. I’ve tried a search for them, but only photos have came up, and any info would be appreciated.

Railcar A - Built 1932. AEC* Diesel engine and mechanical transmission. Open saloon eventually seating 48 Third class in 3+2 layout. Diving cabs both ends.

Railcar B - Built 1932, Gleniffer* Diesel engine and electric transmission. Open saloon seating 40 Third class in a 2+2 layout. Driving cabs both ends.

* Both engines later replaced with Gardner products.

Railcar C (later C 1) - Built 1934. Gardner Diesel engine and mechanical transmission in a power built by Walker Brothers of Wigan. Coach section articulated to the power unit. Single cab at one end, so required turning after each journey.

Railcars 'C 2' & 'C 3' - Built 1935.  Gardner Diesel engine and mechanical transmission in a power built by Walker Brothers of Wigan. Coach section articulated to the power unit. Single cab at one end. When introduced operated as a back to back 2-car unit, but with no multiple unit controls, each towed the other (dead) one in one direction. Split in 1937 and operated singly thereafter and like what was now C 1, required turning after each journey.

Railcars D & E - Built 1936. Single Gardner Diesel engine and mechanical transmission in a centre power unit designed by Walker Brothers of Wigan. Drive was to a single axle on the three axle power bogie, power being applied to the two other axles by outside coupling rods. Two large high capacity coach sections were articulated to the power unit. Driving cabs at each end.

Railcars F & G - Built 1938. Two Gardner Diesel engines each with its own mechanical transmission in a centre power unit designed by Walker Brothers of Wigan. Two axles on the power unit, each driven by one engine. Two large high capacity coach sections articulated to the power unit. Driving cabs at each end.

The war prevented any further GNR/Walker Brothers developments.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Lambeg man

[MidlandDeltic2]

I strongly recommend the book Diesel Dawn by Colm Flanagan. 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Diesel-Dawn-Contribution-Development-1931-1967/dp/1904242081

Edited December 1, 2022 by MidlandDeltic2

[airfixfan]

Have some photos of Railcar A

[Lambeg man]

In a previous question about the GNR,s AEC Railcars, I wrote: 

Following on from the thread I recently activated on the above subject ("AEC Railcars"), I have in mind to produce a booklet intended to raise some funds for the RPSI "No. 171 Appeal".

The GNR 'AEC' Railcars were the 'trains' of my schoolboy years and I suspect of many older members of this forum. A lot of fresh information has recently been placed on the IRM thread and I myself have a good store of documentation relating to their building. While I may yet come back to this forum with further questions.

The book which is currently being composed has now been expanded to cover ALL GNR Railcars AND Railbuses. A separate book wholly about this subject will allow a larger canvas than Colm had for them in 'Diesel Dawn'. He by the way fully backs the project.  

To this end, can I ask if anyone has any decent UNPUBLISHED photographs of any GNR Railcars or Railbuses (as GNR, CIE or UTA) that they would be prepared to forward for use in the book. With regard to payment for using such material, may I again point out that ALL profit from this project will go to the RPSI "171 Appeal". I have drawings of all the relevant vehicles. 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Lambeg man

[David Holman]

Walkers of Wigan certainly seemed to go their own way with railcar design, especially when almost everyone else was doing the conventional thing with a cab at each end and underfloor motors. But hey, it worked and some of their products ran up astonishing mileage.

 I guess that because they used fairly conventional practice, purchase costs were kept down, though the lack of being able to work in multiple meant the Donegal were paying three or more drivers on some of their special trains. Then there was the fact that early railcars couldn't run back to back in pairs, presumably because they only had a single reverse gear. The Colonel Stephens railcars had the same problem, with the rear facing one needing to be towed, in neutral.

 All sorts of weird stuff, from roof mounted driving cabs to Howden-Meredith patent wheels, but what a delight for historians and modellers!

[Lambeg man]

3 hours ago, David Holman said:

roof mounted driving cabs

NCC Railcars only David. Apart from the NCC using Howden-Meredith wheels on their Railbuses, there appears to have been little or no collaboration between Dundalk and York Road, each taking a different path with Railcar development. I may well be wrong and would willingly stand corrected if anyone knows otherwise. LM  

[connollystn]

1 hour ago, Lambeg man said:

There appears to have been little or no collaboration between Dundalk and York Road, each taking a different path with Railcar development.

I wouldn't be surprised, there was probably a North/South approach to the mentality of the people in both bases. Have to say, this is a very interesting thread. It's a pity that none of the unusual Northern stock survived into preservation.

[Lambeg man]

3 hours ago, connollystn said:

It's a pity that none of the unusual Northern stock survived into preservation.

Well Railcar 'A' nearly made it! It was in use until 1962 when a steam locomotive decided to take out one end of it! The body was still extant in Portadown yard in June 1967 along with Railcar 'F' (both by then being a demolition contractor's vehicles). Railcar 'G' lasted until an arson attack in I think 1968 at Belfast (Grosvenor Road sidings), mind you it had been out of use since 1965.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Lambeg man

[Mayner]

On 3/12/2022 at 1:47 AM, connollystn said:

I wouldn't be surprised, there was probably a North/South approach to the mentality of the people in both bases. Have to say, this is a very interesting thread. It's a pity that none of the unusual Northern stock survived into preservation.

The different approach in taken by the GNR and NCC towards railcar development during the 30s & 40s may be as a result of existing agreements with AEC, Gardiner Engines and Leyland for the supply of engines and transmission parts. The GNR appears to have been an AEC & Gardiner company and the NCC a Leyland company. The NCC would have deeper pockets than the GNR which would have allowed York Road to experiment with railcar design while the GNR used proven technology with Atkinson-Walker and AEC/Park Royal after its experiments with railcars A & B

The GNR appear to have been an AEC & Gardiner company in terms of its road fleet, while the GSR and NCC were UTA companies

NCC Railcar No 1 the progenitor of the British Rail 1st generation DMU survives in RPSI care at Whitehead https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/rpsi-collection/42/railcar-1,

York Road continued to be innovative while using a "make do and mend" approach converting existing coaches into diesel railcars under UTA ownership during the 1950s and 60s. The MEDs basically became the proof of concept for the British Rail 1st generation DMUs the MPDs the prototype for the second generation DMUs including NIRs CAFs and IEs 22000 Intercity railcars.

The UTA engineers were limited by the limitations of existing engine and transmission technology and having to kitbash their new trains out of existing 'donor" coaches in a similar manner to Darius and Colm Flanagan converting Airfix, Dapol and GMR coaches to AEC Railcars 5-6, MED and MPD units.

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Mayner

[airfixfan]

Do not forget Dundalk Works experience of the County Donegal railcars as well.

[Lambeg man]

1 hour ago, Mayner said:

Gardiner

Hi Mayner, Many thanks for your input above. BTW it is Gardner diesels. BW, LM