CIE steam era liveries questions

[Scots Mac]

Hi Guys, hi there,I'm a new guy on the block.Hope you don't mind a Scotsman joining in !!. I was over in Ireland a few months back and got severely interested in the Irish scene after a wee visit to Ballina station and railyard in Mayo. Took a liking to the Irish diesel locos and since coming home I've bought quite a few of the excellent Murphy models.At first I decided that I'd stick to the modern scene with preserved steam for a bit of variety.However as a long time steam fanatic once I started researching the Irish steam scene it pulled me towards the CIE 50s and 60s era and now I'm well and truly hooked. I now have umpteen projects on the go converting UK engines by Hornby ,Mainline,Airfix etc.,etc., to as near as I can similar Irish locos. I'm in the process of converting 3 rebuilt LMS patriots to the 3 Irish "queens", Maeve ,Macha and Tailte. I'm also working on a Hornby L1 4-4-0 to represent CIE B12 305, a hornby King Arthur 4-6-0 "Sir Dinidan" to represent the Irish B2 engine No 402. Also a Replica Railways B1 4-6-0 to Irish B1. A Hornby southern 0-6-0 to Irish 670 0-6-2 tank and a Southern M7 tank to CIE 0-4-4 279. I also have plans in the pipeline for other conversions based on the aIRFIX 0-6-0 and others .

Anyway guys,that now brings me to my questions. I have bought some good books on Irish steam and have gleaned some good information on colourschemes etc., however there are some "grey" areas I'm wondering if anybody can help me with.

In the book "Locomotives of the GSR",there is a list of locomotives that got the "green treatment" in CIE days. In the case of the 3 Queens,they appear to always have been lined out. Likewise the solitary 2-6-2 tank No850 definately ran with green livery and full lining which is corroborated in photos. However in the case of the 670 tanks which were given green paint jobs ,any photos I've seen of them all monochrome show no lining??. The last one in service 673 is pictured in 1961 in the book "Irish Railways in Colour" at Amiens street and is definately all black. The B2 I'm modelling 402 is also reported as being one of the locos to receive the green livery in the 50s but she is also pictured in 1961 in what appears to be either black or grey and carrying only the number 402 in either yellow or eau-de-nil (hard to tell) and no sign of any CIE snail logo on her tender. The B12 4-4-0 loco 305 I'm modelling is also reported as having received green but monochrome pictures of her in online galleries in the 1950s show no lining .The photographs are monochrome so can't tell if she's green ,grey or black ,but she is carrying a snail logo on her tender ??? So is it known if any locos got green without the black and white lining ? Anyway guys if you can throw any light on the subject I'd be most gratefull. I have been in touch with Railtec transfers here in the UK and Steve the proprietor is also interested in producing accurate decal sheets for CIE steam era. He has already done eau-de-nil snails and numerals for me.

We thought that some CIE locos had yellow snails but apparently ???, all snails on locos irrespective of green,grey or black livery were always eau-de-nil. Is this correct ? Anyway ,all the best from Sotland and thanks for listening. Slainte ! Davy Cormack (Scotland)

[Mike 84C]

Hi Scots Mac, congratulations we now have an Englishman,Scotsman and probably many Irishmen hacking Enlish locos into very passable Irish locos. Your thoughts as to what will make what are very similar to mine, have a look at my blog which shows how I mutilated a Bachmann V1/3 to make 850. I used Tamya German grey thinned with tamya thinners and water then airbrushed.

Welcome to the group,its a great group of guys, please keep posting and lets see some pictures!

Mike

[heirflick]

welcome Scots mac - great to see what your projects are and looking forward to seeing them all. please post pics as you go (great way of tormenting the lot of us!!!) as for info liveries etc JHB171achill would be your man. im sure the second he sees this he will only be too happy to help. best of luck!

[David Holman]

There are a few colour photo albums which might help you. Tom Ferris has done two 'Irish Railways in Colour', while the is also Irish Traction in Colour by Colin Huntress. Actual quality of film that long ago means tones can't always be trusted, but then again, most stuff had a fairly heavy covering of grime.

 

Nice to see someone new getting interested and the website can usually find someone with the answers you want - often a long way from Ireland! Check out the links to photo-collections too, there are some real gems.

[Scots Mac]

Hi Guys, thanks for your welcome and input. I'm just about to try to add images ,so here goes.....2 pictures, one showing the three 800 class ,in various stages of completion. Single chimney version which will be "Tailte" at the forefront, waht will be Macha and Maeve with the double chimneys behind.

The other picture from front to rear is a the old hornby "Sir Dinidan" severely chopped to (hopefully) represent CIE B2a 402 when finished. Behind that is a hornby 0-6-0 halfway to becoming a representation of a 670 tank.(probably 673 in black as at 1961) Cab shape isn't quite right but will hopefully at least "paint a picture" of something close. Last is a hornby Southern L1 en route to becoming a half decent representation of B12 305. All still need more details and work but its a start. Davy

[jhb171achill]

Wow! Those pics show some serious potential for a fascinating layout, Davy; and welcome to here. There are many with superb skills and knowledge who can help you.

 

Regarding liveries, the main livery by far was battleship grey, perhaps marginally darker than your illustration. It is important to note that chimneys and smoke boxes were grey as well, as were most can interiors, and motion inside and out. Numerals were in a dark cream or light yellow, and "snails" were in the "Eau-de-nil" colour, which was a very pale yellowy green. Snails were never yellow or cream, always eau de nil. Some tenders were in service without snails, either because they hadn't been reprinted from late GSR days, or they just hadn't had any transfers handy.

 

Very very few locos were black, and those that were would have been painted that way from about the mid fifties on. There is a list in Bob Clements book about CIE steam of what engines were green or black. These were with probably a single exception the only locos with black chimneys and smoke boxes, though Cork turned out a solitary J15 as late as about 1960 in grey, but with black smoke box. All green locos were fully lined in black and white, and the exact details can be seen on 800 in Cultra. One 800, I think 802 from memory, got a somewhat lighter shade of green in the early 50s, and at the same time became the only CIE loco to carry a red background on its number and nameplates - the other two had blue, again as on 800.

[jhb171achill]

The colour scheme on the front of the book you mention is not accurate, as it shows a black smokebox and chimney and red lining on a number plate. They were grey all over. I will try to look out the list of green and black locos.

[burnthebox]

Hi Scots Mac and welcome to the site, great to see the options you have put on show, shows what's possible when you get the chance, this may be of interest as you said the years your thinking of are the 50's and 60's so have a look, I picked one up in a train show in Dublin for 5 Euro, haven't done anything to it yet, but it runs great, more pics please, and well done

 

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/111233320521?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648

[jhb171achill]

Here we are. Bob Clements, Drew Donaldson and Bill McDonnell recorded the following, and it can be taken as extremely accurate. The green on anything other than the three 800s (incidentally only one was a "queen"! The rest were legendary figures) dates from 1947. Prior to that, apart from the 800s, absolutely everything was unlined plain all-over grey. Boiler bands were green edged in black, and with a double white line in the centre. Red buffer beams had black edging on green locos. 802 got the lighter shade in 1952/3. A solitary "Woolwich", no. 384, got black with red lining for the Rosslare Express, in the mid 50s. Three grey locos only got black smoke boxes and chimneys - Bandon Tank no. 464, J18 593 and J15 193. They were thus treated in Cork, a long way from home for a J18!

 

The steam CIE era hasn't been well covered in models, so the very best of luck with it!

[Scots Mac]

Hi again guys thanks for the help and more welcomes.

jhb 171 I'd really appreciate any more info you can find. On the subject of 800 class nameplates. I don't know what the original background colour was on the nameplates but there is a picture of 801 "Macha" on page 72 in Tom Ferris' book "Irish Railways in Colour" clearly showing her with single chimney and red name and cabside number plates. I have also seen a colour picture of "Tailte" also at Mallow also with red nameplate and cabside plate. So whether they started out blue like "Maeve" I don't know but Macha and Tailte both had red latterly. Macha and Tailte also had single chimneys latterly going by dated photographs but I don't know if the preserved loco Maeve ever got a single chimney. The 670 tank engine 673 on page 73 of the same book also in 1961 is definately black with red buffer beams so thats the loco I'll do my model as. I would like however to find out if B2a 402 was grey or black at the end. In Tom Ferris' book she is shown at Glanmire road shed Cork in 1961,either grey or black its impossible to tell. Whatever there is no sign of a green livery or lining at this time. She is one listed as having been green in the 50s. Anyway guys I'll keep digging and see what I can find. All good fun. Thanks again for the help. Slainte Davy ( i have just checked the two colour photos showing 800 class with red nameplates. both taken at Mallow ,one is reported as being Tailte ,a picture I lifted from the internet, no date given, it is a very similar shot to the one in Tom Ferris' book dated June 61 but is not the same photo as the folk on the platform in the background are different,however I'm wondering if it is indeed mis-identification for the undated photo certainly looks as if the number on the buffer beam could be 801 and not 802. ????) so another mystery ??? The plot thickens !!

Edited December 15, 2013 by Scots Mac

[jhb171achill]

Hello again, scots mac. All three 800s had blue backgrounds to plates in GSR days, and as you say two had red in latter times,probably dating from about 1952. I would not be an expert on the chimney configurations.

 

Regarding 670, all locos - whether grey, green or black - had red buffer beams, as standard, but grey locos with the exceptions noted above never had black smoke boxes and chimneys - the red buffer beans were the only relief to what looked like a sheep dpi livery! 670 could well have been black. Must look in that book...

 

All green locos were lined, without exception, but many of them, 400s especially, seemed to end up quite filthy. Thus, lining or indeed actual green paint was not perhaps as clear as it might be! I have seen two pics in my time of locos of this class where you could barely tell whether they were grey or green, such was the poor condition of the paintwork as well as the dirt.

[jhb171achill]

Looking at those pics, 402 would appear to be in unlined grey in that photo. At least some signs of lining would be visible otherwise, and a snail on the tender. And 670 is indeed one of the black variety, as is 464 on the next page as I mentioned I my earlier post.

 

Hope this all helps!

[Scots Mac]

Hi jhb, thanks for the interest and help again, it would be interesting to know if B2a 402 was black or grey.There is another undated picture of her on page 238 of the Clements and McMahon book taken from mid-tender and from behind the cab looking forward.Again either filthy black or grey.My logic for thinking she might be black in 1961 is that it would seem to have been CIE policy to give anything that had "late in the steam game" overhauls a coat of black. 402 apparently retired in '61 so it would be logical to think that she'd have been a locomotive that got overhauled late in the day and possibly outshopped in black. In Tom Ferris' book she also appears to be sporting her number on her smokebox face. 402 was the only B2 to have her running plate walkway on one level from cab to cylinders which made her a unique engine.

Locos 305 (B12) 4-4-0 and 502 (B1) 4-6-0 have photographs raising the same livery questions.Both listed as having been given the green treatment. This picture of 305 in 1955 again poses the question green or grey ? She is listed as having been a loco that received the green treatment . Close inspection of ths picture could suggest the faintest trace of lining yet there seems to be no obvious break between the smokebox (which am I correct would have been black on a green loco ??) and the rest of the bodywork . Incidentally,for modelling purposes the nearest off-the-shelf tender I've found to this prototype is the tender from the Hornby LNER B12. I've used a Hornby Southern L1 with the LNER B12 tender for this combination. Not 100% accurate but close enough to capture the essence of this particular Irish B12. Hi jhb, thanks for the interest and help again, it would be interesting to know if B2a 402 was black or grey.There is another undated picture of her on page 238 of the Clements and McMahon book taken from mid-tender and from behind the cab looking forward.Again either filthy black or grey.My logic for thinking she might be black in 1961 is that it would seem to have been CIE policy to give anything that had "late in the steam game" overhauls a coat of black. 402 apparently retired in '61 so it would be logical to think that she'd have been a locomotive that got overhauled late in the day and possibly outshopped in black. In Tom Ferris' book she also appears to be sporting her number on her smokebox face. 402 was the only B2 to have her running plate walkway on one level from cab to cylinders which made her a unique engine. Incidentally it is worth pointing out that there is no relationship between an LNER B12 (4-6-0) and an Irish B12 (4-4-0) just happened to have similar looking tenders. Same goes for my Irish B1 4-6-0 project which will be based on an LNER B1. Again no actual relationship just pure co-incidence. DAVY

Edited December 16, 2013 by Scots Mac

[jhb171achill]

Hello Davy. That pic above looks grey to me. You are right that anything in black came late in the day. By this stage, much of the grey majority were so filthy they might as well have been black - or tartan, pink and yellow! 402 was certainly grey in a number of pics, though I cannot be certain whether it ever carried green or black - or when. I have seen a pic of at least one 400 in what is either black or very dirty grey.

 

One weathering detail which can be seen in 186 today is that on account of the heat generated, a grey smokebox can look darker, leading to the understandable, but erroneous, impression that it is black like it would be on almost any other loco livery in the world! Though France often painted smoke boxes the same as the body colour, and South Africa routinely painted the smoke boxes of black engines in silver-grey.

[jhb171achill]

Scots mac, PM me privately and I can go into more detail. I have checked photos in a number of books and several colour slides I have. Every pic I can see of 400 class locos are all unmistakeable grey. I had something else in the back of my mind era green loco, but when I turned it up it was a "Woolwich". These locos appeared in green, also grey, also black and as I said earlier a single one got black lined in red.

[islandbridgejct]

Regarding the Woolwich locos, Baker, The Railways of the Republic of Ireland, a Pictorial Survey, 1925-75, has a picture of 385 at Inchicore, allegedly and apparently freshly outshopped in black (p51).

 

The same book has 850 and 674 on p33, apparently in a light, lined livery, presumably green.

 

Alan

[jhb171achill]

Alan, if it's lined, then it would indeed be green - though a solitary Woolwich got black with red lining. It was the only CIE loco thus treated.