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Colours of Flying Snails

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jhb171achill
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Someone asked me recently about colours of the 1945-62 CIE logo and accompanying lettering.

 

Firstly, the "Flying Snail".

 

On all steam locos (green, the very few black, or the vast majority grey) - Pale green (eau-de-nil). Never white or yellow. Always lined in gold.

 

On early diesels of B113 and D classes - same until repainted light green.

 

On all other diesels, namely the above in light green and all others later, including the very few paintings of "A" class locos in dark green, the "snails" were unlined light green. A note, in relation to DCDR's G611: no "G" ever carried a snail.

 

Carriages: light green again, lined in almost all cases when dark green (exceptions being a handful of vehicles repainted at Albert Quay); and unlined with lighter green livery. I suspect there were a few cases of lined snails on light green six wheelers, though!

 

No silver coaching stock ever carried the logo.

 

Wagons: White was used from the outset, but in the early 50s, some of the darker grey goods stock had light green snails and numerals.

 

Numbering was always the same colour as the "snail" on diesel locomotives, goods and passenger stock in any livery, but confusion often reigns with regard to steam engines.

 

While the cabside plates had grey (not black) backgrounds on grey engines, and black backgrounds on black engines, there were only three green locos with plates; the 800s. All initially had dark blue backgrounds, as on 800 in Cultra, but 801 and 802 ended up with red backgrounds, as seen on the RPSI's 461 now. (461 was never green in traffic). Raised numerals on plates were painted white or cream, or polished metal.

 

Once plates were replaced by numerals, these were always painted in light yellow. The numerals were never lined.

 

Thus, a typical grey or black painted CIE locomotive had an unlined yellow cabside number and a lined "eau-de-nil" snail. Snails were thus never yellow.

 

I hope the above is of interest and use.

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Hi gang,

 

jhb171achill, perhaps I am misreading your post on Flying Snail Colours, if this is the case then I apologise. However, if my understanding of your post is there were no CIE locomotives that carried yellow numbers or snails, then I beg to disagree.

 

- Flying Snail - in Yellow/Cream, it did exist and can be viewed in a number of photographs. To prove this point I refer to this book -

 

KEITH PIRT COLOUR PORTFOLIO Irish Railways in Colour - Volume 1

 

References:-

 

Page 11 - Class J8 0-6-0 588 Yellow/Cream numbering and Snail

Page 12 - Class G2 2-4-0 655 White numbering

Page 13 - DSER 2-6-6 461 Yellow/Cream numbering and Snail

Page 15 - Class I3 0-6-2 673 Yellow/Cream numbering

Page 18 - Class D14 4-4-0 85 Yellow/Cream numbering

Page 19 - Class B2a 4-6-0 402 Yellow/Cream numbering

 

There are additional photographs of Yellow/Cream numbers shown on broad gauge and narrow gauge CIE locomotives in this publication.

 

I hope this information is of use to my fellow modellers and enthusiasts of Irish Railways.

Edited by Old Blarney
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Garfield / Old Blarney

 

All loco numerals on grey or black locos were pale yellow. Numerals on green logos were "eau-de-nil".

 

I was particularly referring to the "snails", which were "eau". When faded, they often looked a pale yellowish, and on a dirty or faded loco both the yellow number and the snail would have faded to a nondescript yellowish shade.

 

When newly restored about 1990, the RPSI's 461 carried a yellow snail for a while, and being newly restored was much photographed thus. This may have given rise to perceptions of yellow snails - if so, it amplifies the points made elsewhere that preservation liveries - in this country anyway - should never be relied on, as a numerical majority of all preserved locos and coaches, and (from the top of my head) all goods stock, are incorrect in livery details.

 

I'll have a look at that book and report back....!

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Had a look, gents.....

 

Any snails shown appear to come from the transfers mentioned by Minister; as far as I am aware, all "snails" were applied by transfer.

 

There's an exception to every rule, and with regard to "snails" I know of one - a former T & D loco on the Cavan and Leitrim carried a very small white painted one for a while. (In addition, one had chalked ones on it!). This would be the only exception I'm aware of to the notion that (a) no tank locos - broad or narrow - ever carried one, and (b) no snails were white!

 

I'm always interested in exceptions, but I would suggest that any "yellow-looking" snails were discoloured or faded standard transfers.

 

As of numerals, apologies if my post misled; none of these were eau-de-nil except on green locos where all were.

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Apologies for any confusion, Garfield.

 

Summary: Both snails and numerals on all green locos: all "e-d-n", lined gold; nothing yellow ever. 800-2 only had numberplates; no other green locos had numberplates.

 

Grey or black locos: all snails "edn", all numerals yellow.

 

One thing also worth mentioning is that many loco tenders carried no snail at all. This was for two reasons. Firstly, pre-1945 it was GSR days, and many plain grey tenders last painted by the GSR lasted well into CIE days before a re-acquaintance with the Big Grey Paint Pot. Secondly, in the late fifties many of the few steam locos repainted simply had no snails applied. This, as photos will bear out, was especially true of the few turned out in black.

Edited by jhb171achill
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Post 1950, Jawfin, they became more and more common for a few years, as they were the official livery, but by 1960 many steam locomotives either had snails entirely obscured by dirt, or none!

 

A quick "straw poll" could be done of pictures of tender engines in the various books that cover the period - I'd guess 50 / 50 by then.

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On Gregg Ryan's Inchicore 150 book, there's a pic of a worker with a flying snail tin stencil for marking goods wagons.

 

The idea was that the bits that held the stencil together were supposed to be 'filled in' by whoever was painting them on, some pics of wagons you can see where the painter had neglected to do this!

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The stencilled version of the snail was the norm after, I'd say, the mid 50s, but was only seen in this "non-filled-in" form on wagons.

 

By the late sixties, while most wagons wore CIE "roundels", almost all remaining with snails - and there were lots - almost all had the stencilled snail.

 

That's a fantastic looking 121, Railwayman, first time I've seen a model in light grey. I'm not 100% sure on black lining on the "snail", though, will have a delve and see what I can find.

Edited by jhb171achill
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The stencilled version of the snail was the norm after, I'd say, the mid 50s, but was only seen in this "non-filled-in" form on wagons.

 

By the late sixties, while most wagons wore CIE "roundels", almost all remaining with snails - and there were lots - almost all had the stencilled snail.

 

That's a fantastic looking 121, Railwayman, first time I've seen a model in light grey. I'm not 100% sure on black lining on the "snail", though, will have a delve and see what I can find.

 

Thank you - this is a handpainted kit provided by the now defunct Model Irish Railways in resin form. The transfer vinyls provided with the kit included yellow numerals and flying snails lined in black. Here are a few other photos of 121 taken on my layout Ballybeg by Enniscorthyman.

 

20141002_203411_zps6dw0fh6y.jpg

 

20141002_203456_zpsnwghndf6.jpg

 

20141002_203400_zpseoi6gmng.jpg

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That's a superb layout overall - it's easy to forget that all-black "C"'s, "A"'s and B101s would have rubbed shoulders with grey 121s - as well as all sorts of other things - in those days.

 

I'll report back with findings re snails on them once I find a particular photo I'm looking for! I'd almost swear the lining was white, though.

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Did a bit of research on "snails" on the grey 121s. Apart from the grey and yellow touring coaches at about the same time, these were definitely the only yellow snails.

 

There does indeed appear to have been an extremely fine lining round them. It was not white as I thought but either a darkish grey of black as Irishrailwayman suggested above. Reproducing this lining on a model would be difficult as it was indeed very fine, rendering it virtually invisible in most photographs.

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