This i did not expect

[Chevron]

a ballast cleaning train

 

 

never heard of such a thing.

[Garfield]

Nice find!

 

The ballast has to be cleaned periodically to remove mud, dirt, and other debris that can prevent water draining down through the stone.

 

Here's a photo of IÉ's ballast cleaner in operation on NIR metals a couple of years ago...

 

Edited April 1, 2015 by Garfield

[DiveController]

Nice find!

 

The ballast as to be cleaned periodically to remove mud, dirt, and other debris that can prevent water draining down through the stone.

 

Here's a photo of IÉ's ballast cleaner in operation on NIR metals a couple of years ago...

 

Thanks for that, Pat. That question had been on my mind. I knew they cleaned the ballast but wasn't sure exactly why. I was pretty sure it was not just cosmetic in nature

[Chevron]

Nice find!

 

The ballast has to be cleaned periodically to remove mud, dirt, and other debris that can prevent water draining down through the stone.

 

Here's a photo of IÉ's ballast cleaner in operation on NIR metals a couple of years ago...

 

 

 

Thanks , that explains why its done.

i never knew such a thing happened.

[Mayner]

Narrow gauge version of ETM 567 similar machine to the IE Ballast Cleaner in operation in New Zealand.

 

[Chevron]

Just watched that video now. it still amazes me that they can take all the ballast out and replace it after cleaning it without disrupting the track. it reminds me of the programme about building the railway to tibet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo7FBo4mLgU.... amazing the science that actually goes in to railways and ballasting.

[DiveController]

Nice find!

 

The ballast has to be cleaned periodically to remove mud, dirt, and other debris that can prevent water draining down through the stone.

 

Here's a photo of IÉ's ballast cleaner in operation on NIR metals a couple of years ago...

 

 

So is ballast cleaning a modern exercise, insofar as these machines did not exist in the days of steam? I would think there would have been a lot more ash and debris to settle on the track.

[Mayner]

So is ballast cleaning a modern exercise, insofar as these machines did not exist in the days of steam? I would think there would have been a lot more ash and debris to settle on the track.

 

 

 

They have been about from the 1940s and in widespread use in Ireland and the UK from the 1960s. The modern high output machines with self loading/unloading ballast/spoil wagons are relatively recent development to increase the amount of work that can be completed within a possession and reduce the need to run separate spoil and ballast trains as part of the ballast cleaning operation.

 

The need for ballast cleaning is driven more by the grinding down of ballast and concrete sleepers from heavy traffic than from debris falling on the track. Coal ash is quite free draining and used for track ballast and strengthening track foundations & embankments.

 

Traditionally engineers preferred to add more ballast & "lift and pack" track in preference to ballast cleaning which can sometimes damage track foundations by breaking the crust of compacted fill underneath the ballast. The only cure when this happens is to close the line and re-build from the formation up.

[DiveController]

They have been about from the 1940s and in widespread use in Ireland and the UK from the 1960s. The modern high output machines with self loading/unloading ballast/spoil wagons are relatively recent development to increase the amount of work that can be completed within a possession and reduce the need to run separate spoil and ballast trains as part of the ballast cleaning operation.

 

The need for ballast cleaning is driven more by the grinding down of ballast and concrete sleepers from heavy traffic than from debris falling on the track. Coal ash is quite free draining and used for track ballast and strengthening track foundations & embankments.

 

Traditionally engineers preferred to add more ballast & "lift and pack" track in preference to ballast cleaning which can sometimes damage track foundations by breaking the crust of compacted fill underneath the ballast. The only cure when this happens is to close the line and re-build from the formation up.

Very interesting, John. I wonder if the requirement for cleaning has increased or decreased in recent times. Modern locos have obviously become heavier 141-071-201s although I guess the axle loading on the trackbed has probably not changed all that much. With regard to frequency, there are far fewer locomotive powered trains in passenger traffic now almost all being replaced by railcars. I wonder how much freight is traveling by rail now versus 60 or 80 years ago, although loads would have been lighter then, I suspect, although maybe more frequent?

[StevieB]

The biggest change over the years has been from rigid steam locos running on flexible track to flexible diesel/electric locos running on rigid track - the terms flexible and rigid have to be taken with a pinch of salt but a steam loco is relatively rigid compared with a multi axle diesel/electric loco.

This makes for problems running steam locos at high speed on modern mainlines.

 

Stephen

[DiveController]

The biggest change over the years has been from rigid steam locos running on flexible track to flexible diesel/electric locos running on rigid track - the terms flexible and rigid have to be taken with a pinch of salt but a steam loco is relatively rigid compared with a multi axle diesel/electric loco.

This makes for problems running steam locos at high speed on modern mainlines.

 

Stephen

So modern track is more rigid due to stronger rail and deeper ballasting? And modern locos on bogies are more flexible that coupled driving wheels, I guess. So you're saying that there is a lot of wear on the track or the preserved steam loco with modern running?

Edited April 5, 2015 by DiveController
typo

[Mayner]

While modern diesel hydraulic railcars like the Rotems and CAFs are easy on the track, most diesel electric locos and railcars are harder on the track than a large steam loco as the traction motors are unsprung.

 

With a 2 cylinder steam loco at high speed and rigid track there is a risk of the loco bouncing itself off the track as well as damage to the loco.

 

Most of the track and infratructure problems on IE in the 1990s and NIR arose from a combination of running diesel electric locos and railcars at high speed on inadequately maintained track.

 

I suppose packing and lifting and ballast cleaning is a form of preventative maintenance to prevent this sort of problem developing

 

Ballast cleaning may be the only option where it is not feasible to raise the level of the track due to restricted clearance or at station platforms. Ballast cleaning has the advantage that it can be carried out between trains, important on a freight railway where customers would not tolerate disruption to traffic.

[Kirley]

How do you know all these things?, thanks John your imputes are always a lesson in the learning.

[Mayner]

How do you know all these things?, thanks John your imputes are always a lesson in the learning.

 

Mispent years volunteering in a civil engineering gang on a narrow gauge heritage railway in the UK and still having the curiosity of a little boy who simply has to know why?

 

Got to know a lot of professional & volunteer railway people, got my hands dirty, enjoyed myself and drank a lot of beer.

[DiveController]

While modern diesel hydraulic railcars like the Rotems and CAFs are easy on the track, most diesel electric locos and railcars are harder on the track than a large steam loco as the traction motors are unsprung.

 

With a 2 cylinder steam loco at high speed and rigid track there is a risk of the loco bouncing itself off the track as well as damage to the loco.

 

Most of the track and infratructure problems on IE in the 1990s and NIR arose from a combination of running diesel electric locos and railcars at high speed on inadequately maintained track.

 

I suppose packing and lifting and ballast cleaning is a form of preventative maintenance to prevent this sort of problem developing

 

Ballast cleaning may be the only option where it is not feasible to raise the level of the track due to restricted clearance or at station platforms. Ballast cleaning has the advantage that it can be carried out between trains, important on a freight railway where customers would not tolerate disruption to traffic.

John,

What is it that makes modern track more rigid? Deeper ballasting? And that would have been done as locos became heavier?

Presumably modern locos would be more track friendly if the traction motors were sprung?

[Mayner]

John,

What is it that makes modern track more rigid? Deeper ballasting? And that would have been done as locos became heavier?

Presumably modern locos would be more track friendly if the traction motors were sprung?

 

Its a combination of the heavier rail and deeper ballast that makes modern track more rigid. The move to more rigid track and stock with automotive style springing was driven more to reduce track maintenance costs than by heavier locos with higher axle loads.

 

The choice between axle mounted and frame mounted traction motors with carden shaft drive to the axles is probably a trade off between increased track Vs rolling stock maintenance costs.

 

Internationally most diesel electrics & straight electrics tend to have un-sprung traction motors, the exceptions like the British IC125 power cars & ECML Class 91 electrics were designed for continuous 100mph + running.

 

Once the track is adequately maintained running heavy locos with axle mounted traction motors is not a problem, but even where light locos were used poor track maintenance is a recepie for disaster.

[DiveController]

Great responses, John. I have a much clearer understanding of this. Great information on many things I was not even aware of before!