Crest Belts

[Jawfin]

Hello all

 

I was looking at some nice railway company crests the other day and couldn't help to wonder why a lot of them - GSWR, MGWR, GNR, DSER, WLWR, D&BT, DNGR, CBSCR, etc., etc. - have belts wrapped round them. Any thoughts?

Edited April 26, 2015 by Jawfin

[jhb171achill]

Yes. This was standard Victorian-era artistic style for what we now call a "logo" (which is grammatically incorrect anyway!).

 

Incorrectness is no modern phenomenon, as what the railway companies referred to as "crests" are not crests at all - they are coats of arms, surrounded by a garter (the "belt"). On a full "set of arms", you have the shield and crest. The shield is the device which on railway crests is inside the garter. The origins of shield were colours and emblems on the shields of medieval French, Belgian or English warriors going into battle, in order to identify each side or faction.

 

Once the Normans invaded Ireland, the use of such things spread to the old Celtic chieftains here, and obviously once English rule came in after the Cromwellian invasion, they spread further among the landed gentry in particular.

 

By the time railways we invented, these type of devices were the standard type of identification marks for companies, societies and organisations as well as individuals, and anyone wanting to set up a new company would register their new set of arms with the (still extant) College of Arms in London. Since the creation of Northern Ireland in 1921, and independence of the Republic of Ireland, such matters relating to Ireland are attended to via a government office in Dublin.

 

On a railway coat of arms, the shield device generally incorporates the personal arms of company directors or funders, or those of the localities served. Look, for example, at those of the GNR or GSWR and you'll see what I mean. These are surround by a garter, showing the name of the company; while not strictly part of the armorial device, garters became common in order to identify the name of an organisation. Thus, garters would rarely form part of a set of personal arms.

 

So what's an actual crest, as such? A crest, by definition, is something "on top". If you take away a garter, you're left with the shield. Over centuries, many shields became complicated due to the incorporation of a husband's arms with a wife's, on marriage. To simplify identification, a simpler device, like a lion sitting or standing, for example, was placed above the shield. This would be omitted from railway or other companies coats of arms, as the garter identified the owner instead - and more obviously.

 

If you go to the UFTM in Cultra (or whatever it's called now!) you'll see quite a few. But the best collection of Irish coats of arms by far (and I'm delighted to have been able to assist in their acquisition for there) is in Selwyn Johnston's Headhunters Barber Shop and Railway Musuem in Enniskillen; or just plain Enniskillen railway museum. There are many rarities there, and as a MUST for modellers, most are mounted on boards carrying the original railway company paint. Original CIE gree, GSR or NCC maroon, BCDR maroon, GNR loco blue are all there.

[The Derry Road]

What wonderful info, my wife and I have family coats of arms/crests from both families in our back sitting room. This gives us a better understanding or thier origins. Just brilliant. TDR

[minister_for_hardship]

 

By the time railways we invented, these type of devices were the standard type of identification marks for companies, societies and organisations as well as individuals, and anyone wanting to set up a new company would register their new set of arms with the (still extant) College of Arms in London.

 

Railway companies did consult with the College Of Arms about design, but very few went whole hog to have arms granted officially.

 

The ones that did have heraldic devices officially granted were the Great Central, LNER, Southern Railway, British Transport Commission and the UTA.

[minister_for_hardship]

JHB will be disappointed that the MGWR made quite a few errors in their coat of arms...the 3 castles of Dublin should have been on a blue, not red, field. The nag's heads of the extinct arms of Lord Blayney should have been of silver on a black field and erased (jagged edges to the cut) and not couped as depicted. The griffins and boars of Longford should have been of blue and silver on ermine and red fields respectively. Oddly, there is no obvious connection between Lord Blayney or his family and the company, and MGWR metals did not reach the family seat in Castleblayney.

Edited April 26, 2015 by minister_for_hardship

[minister_for_hardship]

Hello all

 

I was looking at some nice railway company crests the other day and couldn't help to wonder why a lot of them - GSWR, MGWR, GNR, DSER, WLWR, D&BT, DNGR, CBSCR, etc., etc. - have belts wrapped round them. Any thoughts?

 

You see these belts quite frequently on Scottish clan badges as well, they were supposed to symbolise fealty to the clan chief. For the railways, I imagine that the garter belt was a neat way of displaying your company name around your shield or monogram.

[WRENNEIRE]

Headhunters:

 

[jhb171achill]

Indeed.....

 

".......Oddly, there is no obvious connection between Lord Blayney or his family and the company, and MGWR metals did not reach the family seat in Castleblayney......."

 

At one stage the Midland planned to expand into that area which is why the Kingscourt line was built by the original Dublin & Meath Railway. The line was to pass through Castleblayney, according to but one plan, and end up in Cookstown, where connections would be made with the BNCR.

 

I believe the UTA was actually the one and only company to have its 1963 coat of arms* firms log granted.

 

(* as opposed to its 1949 "red hand" device).

 

County councils, industrial companies, traction engine manufacturers, textile firms, city corporations and tram companies, as well as sone private clubs, used garters (not "belts"! :-) ) to display their names or mottoes.

[Jawfin]

Thanks very much, all! Very interesting indeed

[jhb171achill]

Incidentally, as far as I remember, the MGWR coat of arms has another unique feature, as well as its numerous puzzling heraldic mistakes; it's the only Irish coat of arms with a right hand buckle at the bottom! Left handed is the norm.

[minister_for_hardship]

The UTA was the only company on the island of Ireland to have what is called a 'full achievement' granted. The GCR was the first railway company to get theirs in 1898 and used it quite frequently, the LNER hand painted theirs on two locos only, one of which was something numbered 4472.

[jhb171achill]

Some companies used only a garter - no cost of arms at all. Often, the vehicle number would be inside this. The Dublin United Tramways were one case in point. The Tralee & Dingle in early days used a garter only on carriage sides, but not on locomotives. In Scotland, the Highland Railway had the heraldic shield plus garter on locomotives, but garter only with number inside it on carriages.

 

I'm unaware of any instances of any sort of heraldic device ever being carried, in any shape or form, on any goods stock anywhere in the world!

 

The transfers often contained gold leaf for gold colouring and were expensive to make, which would be the reason for that.

 

Virtually all British and Irish transfers, also British colonial ones, were made by the famous and old established firm of Tearnes of Birmingham.

[minister_for_hardship]

Another factoid: The Tralee and Dingle's coat of arms was one of the very few to feature the Irish language. The company seal of the Derry Central also had a motto in Irish.

[jhb171achill]

And yet the T & D only used the garter on their rolling stock! The coat of arms was only used in the boardroom.

 

And for those interested: originally, T & D carriages were a very dark purply brown - probably not unlike the GSWR's "dark crimson lake"; this being replaced after 1925 by GSR maroon. Locos were green in T & D days, all-over grey in GSR days.

[minister_for_hardship]

In the Rowlands/Francis/McGrath T&DR book, there's a pre-GSR pic of one of the Hunslets, a coat of arms can be just about made out on cab side sheets.

Might have been a 'one off', applied to just one loco, never came across another pic like it.

 

Also appeared on the cover of their 'Thro Rare West Kerry' tourist guidebook.

 

The 'new' T&DR (incorrectly) applied the same design to coaching stock.

Edited April 27, 2015 by minister_for_hardship