Of all things ballast and hoppers

[Junctionmad]

Oh informed ones,

 

 

Im currently half way through the SSM kit of the ballast plough , ( in preparedness for the hoppers )

 

 

couple of questions

 

( when did they loose the half doors )

 

did the lamps above the ducket serve the same purposes as the rear lamps or were they for another purpose, I notice the ordinary CIE 20 ton brake vans has the same arrangement

 

Because these vans typically ran in pairs , I going to scratch build 8456, which was the last surviving GSWR plough van in service , I believe .

 

here she is doing her stuff

 

[MOD: image removed by request]

 

Questions

 

 

she was part of the GSWR build of 1906 and according to Locomotives & Rolling Stock , was on a 13' wheelbase.

They were extensively remodelled by CIE , without outside sheeting, and enlarged windows

 

Questions

 

(1) When was the series reengineered , were all of the original GSWR done so and if so when were they scrapped

(2) The running gear was all new roller axles , was the wheel base shortened ?

(3) Has anyone an outline drawings of the plough van , in original GSWR or more usefully the reengineered version

 

I did locate some very nice pics on the net of her in mallow, goo up close ones, and I cant find them again !!!

 

OH, did these vans all run with 3-hole disc wheels or did they run with solid wheels ?? and when did CIE introduce " Engineering yellow "?

 

Thanks, I appreciate any help

Edited February 24, 2016 by Garfield
Image removed by request

[Junctionmad]

my second query is always related to the Ballast Hoppers

 

was there any diffence between the Ballast and Dolomite hoppers , and then was there a difference between them and the " Gypsum " hoppers , in Locomotives & Rolling stock ( first edition ) there is mention and a photo graph of each one , page 77,83, and 85

 

I understand from that book , that the " ballast hoppers " were series 24250-24263 , introduced in 1977 , with a 12' wheelbase whereas the Dolomites hopper was series 26612-26627 introduced earlier in 1970.

 

interesting the entry on the " Gypsum hoppers " says these were introduced in 1972 , series 26666-26694 but is described as " converted from magnesite wagons " with a 9'6" wheel base ( yet the magnesite wagons introduced in 1969, were 12' wheel base) !!!

 

Since the pictures seem to all look like the 12' wheelbase hopper , was there actually a gypsum hopper on a smaller wheelbase , and what did it look like

 

 

thanks

 

dave

[aclass007]

I think the gypsum wagon wheelbase was discussed on here recently, and the conclusion was that the short wheelbase was a typo in the book.....

[Junctionmad]

I think the gypsum wagon wheelbase was discussed on here recently, and the conclusion was that the short wheelbase was a typo in the book.....

 

That would make sense ( though interesting there was a CIE ( or GSWR hopper with a 9'6" wheelbase)

 

 

Thats then leaves the question , of the " modern" 1970+ hoppers

 

 

what was the differences between the three types ??

 

Did they all effectively end up as ballast hoppers as the other traffic died away , or were some cut up

Edited February 23, 2016 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

I think in the Odea picture 8146 is an ex-GNR hopper built by Pickerings in 1912, and transferred to CIE on the dissolution of the GNR

 

as to the provenience of hopper 8415 , in the second picture, I dont know, but , its looks like a metal extension has replaced the wooden one in the odea picture ( the second hopper) I wonder is it the same series ?

Edited February 23, 2016 by Junctionmad

[jhb171achill]

There is an original GSWR hopper at Downpatrick, in the same original condition in which it was withdrawn from traffic by CIE in the 1980s.

 

Thee is also a plough van there - again, original GSWR state more or less, and same as 8456 would originally have been.

 

If you're modelling either, the plough van is completely wrong livery wise. In GSWR days they were black all over, with white lettering as on the DCDR plough van. In late GSWR, GSR and CIE days up to about 1970 they were slate grey all over. Neither ever had a black chassis, except when all-black.

 

From 1970 all over standard CIE brown, not the shade on the plough van.

 

The hopper remains in untouched, but by now extremely faded and weathered CIE brown.

[Blaine]

Any progress photos of the SSM kits?

[Junctionmad]

Any progress photos of the SSM kits?

 

soon, I waiting for dart casting to send me some buffers and bits to detail it, Im going to scratch build plough van 8456 , again I waiting for lots of bits and pieces as Im rebuilding by parts locker. Ive got 28 mm axles from Gibson on the way , so Im half think of re working the SSM chassis to be the right dimensions

 

Only trouble is I cut down the width of the plough ( slightly ) to look more correct on 00 gauge track , so I may have to rework that

Edited February 23, 2016 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

There is an original GSWR hopper at Downpatrick, in the same original condition in which it was withdrawn from traffic by CIE in the 1980s.

 

Thee is also a plough van there - again, original GSWR state more or less, and same as 8456 would originally have been.

 

If you're modelling either, the plough van is completely wrong livery wise. In GSWR days they were black all over, with white lettering as on the DCDR plough van. In late GSWR, GSR and CIE days up to about 1970 they were slate grey all over. Neither ever had a black chassis, except when all-black.

 

From 1970 all over standard CIE brown, not the shade on the plough van.

 

The hopper remains in untouched, but by now extremely faded and weathered CIE brown.

 

when did the plough vans go engineer yellow

 

do you know when plough van 8456 was modified by CIE ?

[jhb171achill]

Yellow first appeared on "track machines" (bought-in tamping machines) in the 1960s. There was some anecdotal evidence that at least some of the VERY few prior to then were grey. Yellow started spreading to actual railway vehicles in the 1990s. Both this livery, and that last (of several) rebuild were probably about then, I'd say at a guess mid 90s.

[Junctionmad]

Yellow first appeared on "track machines" (bought-in tamping machines) in the 1960s. There was some anecdotal evidence that at least some of the VERY few prior to then were grey. Yellow started spreading to actual railway vehicles in the 1990s. Both this livery, and that last (of several) rebuild were probably about then, I'd say at a guess mid 90s.

 

hmm, I certainly remember the plasser 07 series tampers in yellow, in 1975 and I clearly remember the Wickham inspection cars in yellow around the same time,

 

Were not the 1977 plough vans ( i.e. the SSM model) painted yellow . or were they brown on build . my layout will be 75-80s , so what colour would the plough vans be ( have we any photo evidence of mid seventies - 80s ) ballast trains

 

The picture I reference above of 24851, looks a very light colour ( yellow?)

Edited February 23, 2016 by Junctionmad

[jhb171achill]

The pic above is indeed yellow, Junctionmad, though very weathered (as they usually looked). I think - but stand to be corrected - that two brake vans, possibly both of GSW origin - were done like that, but only one was running latterly.

 

I mentioned that yellow appeared for railway vehicles in the 90s - I meant "ordinary" vehicles (like plough vans), not "yellow machines" and wickhams. Early inspection cars were painted in carriage livery - maroon under the GSR, and the older dark green, fully lines and "snailed" by CIE. The actual Wickham cars were yellow from the outset and were about in the late 70s. At that stage, plough vans and ballast wagons were brown, in standard CIE livery (i.e. brown all over, roof and chassis and wheels included). If you base your layout in the 70s-80s (a fascinating period), that's the way to go. I have a few pics somewhere - probably in upside-down-land; I'll delve. I took them about 1978 and the plough van is brown with CIE roundel. The only diversion from normal lettering was the addition of stencilled "PWD" on some vehicles.

[Junctionmad]

Thanks. I'd love to see any pics , upside down preferred.

 

Brown it seems to be so. Was the pic of the new build plough van , painted a light colour for picture purposes and then painted brown ?

[jhb171achill]

Which new build plough van?

[Junctionmad]

Plough van 28451 in my first post

[popeye]

Here is a picture of the GSWR Ballast van at Downpatrick.

 

 

[jhb171achill]

That initial black and white photo is actually the same normal yellow seen on all such things nowadays; it's a little over exposed, and clean, which is why it looks so light. The DCDR van, if carrying that lettering, should be all black, or all slate grey (post about 1918). If GSR, all grey. If CIE, all greay plus snail until mid sixties, then all grey plus roundel for a few years, and all brown plus roundel from maybe 1972ish until it was withdrawn. The "H" van to its right also suffers from the preservationists "wagon curse" of black ironwork. They, nor their equivalents, never had black chassis.

 

Note the brown ironwork on the body of the DCDR one - at least that's right. The "black ironwork curse" has made the DCDR's ex-NCC goods brake van, and the RPSI's "Ivan" look like zebras; neither ever had black ironwork. Old black and white photos often imply otherwise, in fact it's rusted metal, which is darker in a b/w photo than badly faded grey paint on wooden planks!

 

Oh - and roofs almost always body colour. Not grey with brown bodies, white or black.

 

But I digress......

[Junctionmad]

Jhb171achill

 

At least one GSWR 8456 was modified by Cie with outside sheeting and survived well into 2000s . Do you know they were converted and was it the only one.

 

My view is that these " new" plough vans were yellow from the introduction of the new Cie built series in 1977, while the original GSWR ploughs would most likely have remained brown as you say

 

Perhaps 8456 was the only GSWR plough to be rebuilt as I gather she suffered structural failure and was therefore rebuilt as a result

 

Anyone have a drawing of the GSWR plough

[jhb171achill]

Jhb171achill

 

At least one GSWR 8456 was modified by Cie with outside sheeting and survived well into 2000s . Do you know they were converted and was it the only one.

 

My view is that these " new" plough vans were yellow from the introduction of the new Cie built series in 1977, while the original GSWR ploughs would most likely have remained brown as you say

 

Perhaps 8456 was the only GSWR plough to be rebuilt as I gather she suffered structural failure and was therefore rebuilt as a result

 

Anyone have a drawing of the GSWR plough

 

There were at least two GSWR ones converted. 8456 was one, and the longer surviving one. I don't know what the other was but I may have the info in the Catacombs; I'll look today.

 

You're absolutely right about the 1977 ones. They were the first ever yellow wagons and were that way from the start, while others remained brown. The two rebuilt GSWR ones were almost certainly the only other ones to become yellow.

[josefstadt]

Early inspection cars were painted in carriage livery - maroon under the GSR, and the older dark green, fully lines and "snailed" by CIE.

 

At least one of the earlier GSR cars got the Black & Tan livery. The May 1969 issue of 'Irish Railfans' News' contains the following entry:

'Drewry Inspection Car No.4 of 1927 has been renovated at North Wall, Dublin, and converted for use as a track recording unit to help locate irregularities in the lines. It has been repainted in the standard livery of black, golden brown and white'.

[jhb171achill]

That's tight,josefstadt, I forgot about that! That was the last of the Drewry ones in use. The yellow wickhams (of which two are on the DCDR) came soon after.

 

Jhb171senior used to use the old railbus which is in Cultra for his GNR inspection outings, and the platform at the back was slightly amended to allow ladder access onto the track. He also used, in earlier times, a PP, P or UG class loco with Saloon No. 50, also fitted with a specially made set of portable steps from the gangway end.

[Junctionmad]

Thanks guys

 

Would anyone , know where to get a drawing of the rebuilt GSWR ploughs, or even a drawing of them before rebuilding , according to O.Doyle, S Hirsch, they were 13' wheelbase compared to 12' for the CIE ploughs, I suspect they were longer overall to.

 

Still trying to find out

 

(a) when were some rebuilt by CIE ( so I can decide to model them as original , which is a trip to Downpatrick , or as CIE rebuilds)

 

(B) when were the non rebuilt GSWR plough removed from service

 

thanks again

Dave

[jhb171achill]

The DCDR one was withdrawn early to mid 80s.

[Junctionmad]

Thanks,

 

Would you believe , having stared at ballast plough for 3 weeks , Ive just realise the SSM model is missing a window, grrrrrrrrr, and I have it soldered together, it will be fun cutting it out now .......

[Blaine]

soon, I waiting for dart casting to send me some buffers and bits to detail it, Im going to scratch build plough van 8456 , again I waiting for lots of bits and pieces as Im rebuilding by parts locker. Ive got 28 mm axles from Gibson on the way , so Im half think of re working the SSM chassis to be the right dimensions

 

Only trouble is I cut down the width of the plough ( slightly ) to look more correct on 00 gauge track , so I may have to rework that

 

Any updates???