CIE green paint

[popeye]

I want to paint 2 coaches in CIE green. So i need to know is the dark green on the Murphy Models/Bachmann correct.

Or should it be lighter like the coach in The quiet man film?

The 2 pictures are here for you to see the difference.

 

Edited March 1, 2018 by popeye

[railtec-transfers]

16 minutes ago, murrayec said:

Hi Steve

With the last image I posted, I reckon hold off on doing anything until we see comments back over a few days!

After doing this exercise this morning my preference is now for 14 C 35 on all the EDN colour- lined snail, unlined snail, and the body stripes- and not use 216 at all.

On the lining;-

I'm sure you thought of it- the lines could be in short lengths to make it easier to apply, and the below window line goes through the door handles- I can give you dimensions for this off a SSM 6 wheeler kit if you require?

Eoin

 

 

Sounds like a plan. Shall we get the colour(s) nailed first and tackle the dimensions second?

I was thinking about how tricky the lining would be to apply bearing in mind door handles and such. I'd make them so that they're sufficiently thin to bed in around recesses but in my experience door handles even on modern models can stand very prominent, possibly even out of scale, and even in the hands of a very accomplished modeller such prominent features can be a nightmare to work around. I'd envisage the best I could help is to just print sufficient lengths of lining (e.g. 260mm lengths for a 4mm coach) and leave the choice to the modeller whether to cut into smaller pieces or not.

 

[johnminnitt]

43 minutes ago, murrayec said:

Hi johnminnitt

They are the same, I gave the image as for comparison right or left, one or other, but not mixing them

In setting up the samples I used the movie image to extract the colour of the snail/stripe and then used the same palate of colours to select the closest match to the BS colour cards- 14 C 35 comes the closest for that image- if you have an other image your referring to post it up and I'll do the same process to it

Eoin

Yes, I understand your comparison, I was referring to Steve's suggestion of 216 for snails and 14 C 35 for numbers and lines.

On the whole I think I agree with your preference for 14 C 35 for the whole lot.

PS Holts (http://www.autocustompaint.co.uk/Pages/BritishStandardPaint.aspx) list 14 C 35 as 'Braemer Green in the 4800 range, in aerosols and touch-up paints.

Edited March 2, 2018 by johnminnitt

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, johnminnitt said:

Surely snails, lines and numbers should be the same shade?

Yes, they are / were; always.

On Eoin's comparison, the right hand one looks better. The actual colours available seem to veer between either to yellowy or too much blue - see avatar left for exact version.

The lining - the single line on the lighter green livery is , I think 3 inches thick. Maybe 2 1/2. If anyone is close to Downpatrick or has access to the heritage RPSI set in Dublin, or the CIE green dining car at Whitehead, that can be measured.

For the earlier green livery, the band above the windows looks to be about 8 or maybe 9 inches thick. The band below the windows is wider on the Bachmann coach model - this is entirely incorrect - it should be much narrower, possibly 6 inches. I will try to ascertain this.

As can be seen on the film clip, on both buses and carriages the EDN bands were edged with black and gold. On snails and numerals, lined gold.

Edited March 2, 2018 by jhb171achill

[murrayec]

Hi Guys

The plot thickens

I contacted my excellent railway historical source to see if he could shed some light on this subject, amazingly he has a GUARD sign which he photographed and sent me, I adjusted the levels and pasted in the colour references we have been discussing and sent him the image, he and an assistant have viewed the image with the board in his fist and conclude that 216 is the closest match

The transfer is an original CIÉ 1950s

The paint green came from carriage shop Inchicore  by Cyril Fry. 

The board is foam board nó undercoat two coats of paint not varnished. 

The transfer was beginning to perish but not "yellowed" Transfer is not sealed. 

 

 

 

They are going to view it again on different screens and see if they have the same opinion on 216 and come back to me.

I have also discussed meeting up with him and going to a paint supply system to get an exact reference match and some paint to do a test

 

What a nice thing to have

 

I shall report back

 

Eoin

 

[popeye]

I have mixed some paint for EDN and have painted the stripes on a coach.

This is just a test to see what you think, i can adjust it later.

Also the photo looks very different from the model i painted so it's by no means exact.

 

[Glenderg]

In my humble opinion, Eau-de-nil is really really light, more of a toothpaste level of colour saturation than the vibrant colours shown. I know there's headboards from headhunters and so on, but the colour is just a really washed out version of the main green colour. 

I painted these coaches many years ago with what I consider to be the lighter shade, with commensurate eau de nil for the stripe, and when glossed up, and weathered, tone to match photo's I've referred to. Much paint was messed about in trying to get a shade right that I thought might be right. Could still be wrong, mind, and would happily admit it. 

The other shades shown are bottom left a CIE green (I think, could be ammonia frames too) , and right, an RPSI Green to match the MK2 coaches and bachmann yank ones. R

 

Edit - Would it be possible there are two Eau-de-Nil  shades to match each period of CIE green @jhb171achill

Edited March 3, 2018 by Glenderg

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, popeye said:

I have mixed some paint for EDN and have painted the stripes on a coach.

This is just a test to see what you think, i can adjust it later.

Also the photo looks very different from the model i painted so it's by no means exact.

 

That's pretty good, yes. The dark green - providing the computer screen shows it accurately - is just right. The EDN looks fine too - there appears to be a slight difference between the paint and the transfer, but it's close enough. The close-up pic of the paint pot above, however, for the EDN looks fine to me.

53 minutes ago, Glenderg said:

In my humble opinion, Eau-de-nil is really really light, more of a toothpaste level of colour saturation than the vibrant colours shown. I know there's headboards from headhunters and so on, but the colour is just a really washed out version of the main green colour. 

I painted these coaches many years ago with what I consider to be the lighter shade, with commensurate eau de nil for the stripe, and when glossed up, and weathered, tone to match photo's I've referred to. Much paint was messed about in trying to get a shade right that I thought might be right. Could still be wrong, mind, and would happily admit it. 

The other shades shown are bottom left a CIE green (I think, could be ammonia frames too) , and right, an RPSI Green to match the MK2 coaches and bachmann yank ones. R

 

Edit - Would it be possible there are two Eau-de-Nil  shades to match each period of CIE green @jhb171achill

Interesting......  firstly, the same EDN for both green periods, as the transfers didn't change for numerals etc. 

Above, the green paint on the coach, to be honest, isn't quite right for the lighter shade - from viewing on a computer it seems almost as if it has an "olivey green" shade in it. somewhere. The open pots, though - left hand about the right darkness but a bit yellowy. the pot on the right more like it but a bit dark.

We're getting there, folks! A valuable exercise, though it's bound to drive some readers mad!  :-)

[jhb171achill]

8 hours ago, murrayec said:

Hi Guys

The plot thickens

I contacted my excellent railway historical source to see if he could shed some light on this subject, amazingly he has a GUARD sign which he photographed and sent me, I adjusted the levels and pasted in the colour references we have been discussing and sent him the image, he and an assistant have viewed the image with the board in his fist and conclude that 216 is the closest match

The transfer is an original CIÉ 1950s

The paint green came from carriage shop Inchicore  by Cyril Fry. 

The board is foam board nó undercoat two coats of paint not varnished. 

The transfer was beginning to perish but not "yellowed" Transfer is not sealed. 

 

 

 

They are going to view it again on different screens and see if they have the same opinion on 216 and come back to me.

I have also discussed meeting up with him and going to a paint supply system to get an exact reference match and some paint to do a test

 

What a nice thing to have

 

I shall report back

 

Eoin

 

From the above, clearly one might get the exact EDN shade by one part 14E50 and two parts 216. The RAL 6021 is the closest of all of them, by far, without alteration.

Edited March 3, 2018 by jhb171achill

[johnminnitt]

12 hours ago, popeye said:

I have mixed some paint for EDN and have painted the stripes on a coach.

This is just a test to see what you think, i can adjust it later.

Also the photo looks very different from the model i painted so it's by no means exact.

 

I think that EDN looks pretty good too, what was the mix?

The transfers match well too, if you painted over them it's very neatly done.

Re the 'Guard' image - I agree with Achill, the 6021 looks closest, neat 216 looks a bit dark

Again, sorry to be repetitive, I don't think one should be too hung up about official specifications, what a colour looks like in service on an actual coach at some distance is the main thing surely. The 'Quiet Man' EDN looks a good deal lighter than 216, or is that my eyes, or 1950's colour film?

Edited March 3, 2018 by johnminnitt

[popeye]

Every picture you look at will be different so you have to pick an average that you are happy with.

The quiet man pic's must be 50 or 60 years old so they do look dull and i would not go by that.

for my colour mix i used light oak No 71 and my own mix of green similar to emerald green.

I did paint the transfers but just one coat as a test, it took 2 hours just to do one side.

[jhb171achill]

8 hours ago, johnminnitt said:

This is just a test to see what you think, i can adjust it later.

Also the photo looks very different from the model i painted so it's by no means exact.

Exactly..... all of us would need to be looking at the real thing in daylight, and a model, not a computer screen!

[murrayec]

Hi Guys

I got this message back from my railway historical source;-

"Looks good to me. Sticking to what I said after looking at different screen it's a close as feasible to the real thing.

Fourm post can be updated  216 is the best option its the closest"

 

Eoin

[murrayec]

On 02/03/2018 at 9:08 PM, popeye said:

Also the photo looks very different from the model i painted so it's by no means exact.

 

 

 

Hi popeye

The best way to take a photo is to take it in diffused daylight with a white background and a pure black object in the scene, the camera white balanced before you take the shot, then the levels can be adjusted using the black and white colours in the photo, once you have B&W levels set correctly one has the best colour representation on screen for that situation.

Most cameras and phones now have facility for white balancing- this is done just before taking the photo in the same environment you want to take the picture, done with a white sheet of paper held arms length away from the lens, then balance the camera, then take the shot of the model.

The GUARD sign photo was taken like this- daylight, white snow background, and black cover book in the shot, then the levels of the photo were adjusted in photoshop (most decent bitmap graphic editors have this facility) and then the green background colour was assessed on screen with the board in the fist to see if it gave a good rep.....

When comparing colours in an image its best to do it in the bitmap graphics editor- ie, photoshop, where one can see the values of RGB, or whatever the colour format your working with, and also in greyscale! our eye perceives tones of grey far better than colour- graphics editors have all these facilities for proofing images....

Your photo of the model body you painted seems to be taken indoors under artificial light with a cream background- the light and background will effect the way the camera sees the colours of the model and that is why the photo looks different to the real thing.....

Eoin

[popeye]

11 hours ago, murrayec said:

Hi popeye

The best way to take a photo is to take it in diffused daylight with a white background and a pure black object in the scene, the camera white balanced before you take the shot, then the levels can be adjusted using the black and white colours in the photo, once you have B&W levels set correctly one has the best colour representation on screen for that situation.

Most cameras and phones now have facility for white balancing- this is done just before taking the photo in the same environment you want to take the picture, done with a white sheet of paper held arms length away from the lens, then balance the camera, then take the shot of the model.

The GUARD sign photo was taken like this- daylight, white snow background, and black cover book in the shot, then the levels of the photo were adjusted in photoshop (most decent bitmap graphic editors have this facility) and then the green background colour was assessed on screen with the board in the fist to see if it gave a good rep.....

When comparing colours in an image its best to do it in the bitmap graphics editor- ie, photoshop, where one can see the values of RGB, or whatever the colour format your working with, and also in greyscale! our eye perceives tones of grey far better than colour- graphics editors have all these facilities for proofing images....

Your photo of the model body you painted seems to be taken indoors under artificial light with a cream background- the light and background will effect the way the camera sees the colours of the model and that is why the photo looks different to the real thing.....

Eoin

Thanks, i know how to balance the white.

It was photographed in fluorescent light which is soft and the camera set for this, then it can be adjusted on the computer.

The problem i have is a very bad screen, cheap and nasty. The picture on the camera screen looks fine.

[railtec-transfers]

At risk of dragging up an old thread, a couple of people had asked for the eau de nil lining to be recreated, which has now been done. The revamped lining includes the 6" stripe as well as the 3" stripe with accompanying pinstripes either side as shown in The Quiet Man film still. I believe I now have the EDN colour as close as anyone could probably hope to get it. To summarise the available 4mm packs:

4mm-5641, EDN lining

4mm-5635, EDN flying snails & large numbers

4mm-5641, CIE Stanier coach set (if this needs a better description, please let me know)

These can be found at:

http://www.railtec-models.com/catalog.php?type=5&gauge=4mm&region=2&livery=203

 

If there are gaps in the above range, feel free to let me know. I know there are gold-lined flying snails also discussed which I've partially tested, though what's stopping me from making these available is understanding what a suitable pack containing these should look like, particularly in terms of L/R facing, sizes (different sizes?), etc.

[popeye]

That looks much more like the right colour.

Thanks for your perseverance.

In picture 3 do the numbers need to go from 1 to 9 ? If they are door numbers they would only 

need to be 1,2,3.

[murrayec]

Hi Steve

That looks great, next step is to see them on a coach...

Eoin

 

[Glenderg]

Has something happened to JB? 

[Warbonnet]

10 hours ago, Glenderg said:

Has something happened to JB? 

He is currently holidaying overseas. 

[railtec-transfers]

19 hours ago, popeye said:

That looks much more like the right colour.

Thanks for your perseverance.

In picture 3 do the numbers need to go from 1 to 9 ? If they are door numbers they would only 

need to be 1,2,3.

Thanks popeye. The numerals in image 3 (pack 4mm-5635) are there for historical reasons as good as any - and there's no saying they are true to life. If memory serves numerals at that size must have been requested by at least one modeller to accompany the snails (for steam locos perhaps?), and so they have remained in the pack. If there is no need for them going forward and if they're little more than fictional then I can easily drop them in future print iterations.

The "1", "2" and "3" class markings I think you are referring to appear in pack 4mm-5641, which is intended to suit the coaches.

Btw I should have probably made explicitly clear in the post but the shade I have opted for (colour ref 216, further back) based on what _seems_ to be an overall opinion is the shade that is ex-works. Whether or not in the future I decide to make a parallel "worn" lighter shade remains to be seen, though hand on heart the consistent 80-90hr weeks year after year struggle to get through everything as it is, and quality of life has been taking a hammering . Still, I hope what's on offer will help folks get to where they need to be.

[popeye]

Thanks Steve for your hard work.

I believe most steam loco's had numbers that were a pale straw colour.

 

[murrayec]

Here is a test of the Railtec Transfers on a piece of flat cut out styrene for a 6 wheeler lav coach, the green paint is Humbrol 3 and after transfers were on finished with semi-matte Alclad II;-

I reckon the colour for the lining looks quite good.

The pinstripe is only on the narrow line but looks clear.

I bought the 4mm-5635 n674 sheet as it had the smallest logo for this type of coach, but as popeye mentions above the numbers are a problem! - you get enough of the small logos to do ten of these coaches but only enough 1, 2, & 3 numbers to do four & a half of these coaches- it would be great to see the numbers 4 to 0 changed to 1, 2, & 3 on the sheet!

If there is to be an edit on this sheet regarding the numbers I would suggest making a separate sheet for the 6 wheelers and I would suggest scaling the logo and numbers down by a .8 factor.....

Otherwise I will be using these.

Eoin

[popeye]

The colour looks good. 

Did the lining go on ok over the bumps and handles?

 

[murrayec]

8 hours ago, popeye said:

The colour looks good. 

Did the lining go on ok over the bumps and handles?

 

Hi popeye

The test styrene side is scored with the Cameo Silhouette knife for the bumps so not like a model side's deep and wide relief, I used a few drops of PVA in the water as recommended by Railtec's instructions, they say this is preferred to MicrolSol, also to avoid MicroSet.  I could not encourage the decal to sit down into the score lines but that might have been expecting to much!  But the decal is pretty strong as I had to manipulate the lining with a stick and bud to get it in position with no tares, reckon it will work OK on the actual model sides.

I have another styrene side which I'm going to put the high relief vents on and test again.

Door handles and guard went on after the decals.

Eoin

 

[jhb171achill]

On 2/6/2019 at 4:15 PM, railtec-transfers said:

Thanks popeye. The numerals in image 3 (pack 4mm-5635) are there for historical reasons as good as any - and there's no saying they are true to life. If memory serves numerals at that size must have been requested by at least one modeller to accompany the snails (for steam locos perhaps?), and so they have remained in the pack. If there is no need for them going forward and if they're little more than fictional then I can easily drop them in future print iterations.

The "1", "2" and "3" class markings I think you are referring to appear in pack 4mm-5641, which is intended to suit the coaches.

Btw I should have probably made explicitly clear in the post but the shade I have opted for (colour ref 216, further back) based on what _seems_ to be an overall opinion is the shade that is ex-works. Whether or not in the future I decide to make a parallel "worn" lighter shade remains to be seen, though hand on heart the consistent 80-90hr weeks year after year struggle to get through everything as it is, and quality of life has been taking a hammering . Still, I hope what's on offer will help folks get to where they need to be.

Ooohhhhhhh!!!! How come I missed this?

Perfect!

It was posted nearly a year ago, when I was footplating a seriously clapped-out "preserved" Burma Railways 2.8.2 across darkest Myanmar.....

And I'm off to Brazil and Argentina tomorrow (insufferable show-off....). No railways this time, though.

However; those CIE coach linings and snails are properly accurate, and very timely. Just wait till I get all my six-wheelers.....

On 3/1/2019 at 12:42 AM, popeye said:

The colour looks good. 

Did the lining go on ok over the bumps and handles?

 

Yes, it did. But not on ends, which were black.

[jhb171achill]

On 2/6/2019 at 7:43 PM, popeye said:

Thanks Steve for your hard work.

I believe most steam loco's had numbers that were a pale straw colour.

 

Close enough, yes, a pale yellowish straw colour, but not actual yellow. Nothing was yellow.

So - cream/yellow/straw unlined numerals, eau-de-nil (light green) snails, lined in gold.