Liveries of Great Southern Railway

[kenbac]

Can anyone advise the liveries of Great Southern Railways between 1924 and the setting up of CIE

[jhb171achill]

Thanks for comments re liveries, folks. In answer to:

 

"......Except the converted parcels/brake van that became the iconic weedsprayer wagon. I assume Edgar Craven Bredin was the same engineer, along with Beaumont, responsible for both iconic carriage design types associated with his name?....."

 

Yes. H J A Beaumont joined Inchicore in 1899 as a trainee draughtsman in the old drawing office there and by the time Edgar Bredin came along he was the senior one, thus it was to him that Bredin turned when he wanted a shape put on his plans. Info on HJAB is surprisingly sparse. He was an extremely private man who kept himself to himself and his family. In family ownership, nothing whatsoever has survived of his... and most of his drawings of the 800 class locos was destroyed in a clear out at the works in the early 1960s.

 

Bredin and HJAB were involved with the second batc h of Drumm trains and numerous rebuilds of both locos and carriages, as well as the 800 class and the "Bredin" coaches.

 

The coaches were the first steel-skinned coaches in Ireland, though the GNR(I) were developing their own at the same time. To this end, HJAB made several visits to Dundalk Works, and his counterparts came to Inchicore to review progress. There were two versions: side corridor main line stock and centre aisle suburban stock with no end gangways at first, though these were later added. With all having gangways eventually, the suburban ones were not at all uncommon on the main lines. Many were still in use on CIE well into the 1970s. The RPSI had three (or pissib ly four; memory lets me down here), all but one of which suffered fatal damage in a fire at Mullingar some years ago, where one was torched, and in the late 90s another 2 were among 5 or 6 coaches awaiting restoration at Whitehead which were destroyed in a vandal-related fire. (Pity the vandals weren't in them).

 

The sole remaining complete one is currently undergoing restoration by the RPSI and will hopefully return to main line service. I think, as someone said, there is a non-operational one at Dromod. If so, it is likely to be 1900, the solitary Bredin all-first.

 

Bredin / HJAB also designed the steel-panelled TPOs, post office sorting vans and full brakes which were to be seen in use well into CIE period. The very last CIE-built full brakes were built to an essentially Bredin design in the late 50s, by which time both Bredin and HJAB were no longer in the railway. (HJAB, in fact, had died in 1951).

[jhb171achill]

On re-reading the above, please forgive my typos!

 

I norm;aly spel quiet. w3ell.

[Mayner]

JHB

 

I did not realise that the RPSI lost so many Bredins due to arson.

 

I took a photo of one of the Bredin Suburban brakes around 2002, it was stored at the back of the carriage shops in Inchacore it had been in departmental use but still in black and tan. I wonder if it still survive.

 

For the modeller the SSM Bredins are fairly complex but make up into a very nice model.

 

 

 

Bogie Brake

 

 

 

Composite

[Horsetan]

...I did not realise that the RPSI lost so many Bredins due to arson.

I did wonder whether Irish preservation sees more arson attacks than anywhere else.

[minister_for_hardship]

I did wonder whether Irish preservation sees more arson attacks than anywhere else.

 

The uk has more, a lot more, greater population density of scobes. The Middleton seems to have stuff nicked, vandal attacks and break-ins on a nearly monthly basis.

I don't know why they don't just call it a day and move.

[Horsetan]

I seem to recall that RPSI also lost both surviving GNR(I) K15 coaches. Or is there still one left?

[jhb171achill]

Horsetan. the RPSI had 525 and 727, as well as existing No. 9 in the Dublin set - the last of them.

 

525 was a brake coach like 114, and 727 was a full open - in fact, it lasted as a 70 class intermediate until about 1980, making it the last GNR coach in service. GNR coaches of post war vintage very built with very poor quality wood, and rotted prolifically. 727 and 595 literally fell apart while awaiting restoration at Whitehead some years ago. 114 still exists, but would not be in anything like runnable condition - she would need a 100% rebuild. She had been used as a crew coach well into the 1990s on northern based trips and the May Tour.

 

No. 9 - or 1909 as it is now known, was very rotten and was completely structurally rebuilt at Whitehead in the early '90s.

 

There was another GNR coach - a rare brake first of about 1940 origin - which was used as a coal-carrying and crew coach on most of the Society's early tours. (It wasn't a K15, obviously!). This coach was also prone to body rot and was scrapped years ago.

 

Surviving GNR coaches are the RPSI's Dublin vintage set diner No. 88, and of course the Director's Saloon, No. 50, at Whitehead. At Downpatrick, the body of a six wheel GNR coach sits on a matching 30ft chassis of MGWR origin, awaiting eventual restoration. It is one of six that were acquired second hand by the BCDR from the GNR in the 1920s, but saw little use on the BCDR before being withdrawn after only a few years and the body sold off locally.

 

Since this thread is about liveries... the coaches referred to above include 114 - the last coach surviving in GNR brown livery. This bypassed CIE green and was repainted directly from GNR livery to black and tan about 1966. CIE used it a few years more. 595 ended its days in NIR all-over maroon with waist level light grey line. this livery was applied briefly to what clapped out ex-UTA stock was retained for loco hauled excursion use. This stock briefly included some old de-engined railcar stock too. 727 ended up with the NIR livery of maroon and blue. Diner 88 has had many liveries. Starting in GNR scumble, later GNR brown, then GNR blue and cream, UTA green, NIR maroon and grey, then it entered RPSI ownership. It has carried (in RPSI times) a non authentic maroon livery, GNR blue and cream, and latterly CIE post-1955 green (which actually suits it very well). While 88 was never owned by CIE, some 50% of GNR coaching stock, including other catering vehicles, was.

[Horsetan]

Horsetan. the RPSI had 525 and 727, as well as existing No. 9 in the Dublin set - the last of them.

 

525 was a brake coach like 114, and 727 was a full open - in fact, it lasted as a 70 class intermediate until about 1980, making it the last GNR coach in service. GNR coaches of post war vintage very built with very poor quality wood, and rotted prolifically. 727 and 595 literally fell apart while awaiting restoration at Whitehead some years ago. 114 still exists, but would not be in anything like runnable condition - she would need a 100% rebuild. She had been used as a crew coach well into the 1990s on northern based trips and the May Tour.

 

No. 9 - or 1909 as it is now known, was very rotten and was completely structurally rebuilt at Whitehead in the early '90s......

 

Thanks very much for that. I did a search through the RPSI's current stock list, and couldn't find no.9 / 1909.

 

Reason why I asked whether a K15 was still extant is because I'm looking for a suitable excuse to buy a kit to replicate a preserved one....if there was one preserved.

[Lough Erne]

No 9 or 1949 as she is known now for the benefit of IE's computer is actually a K31, not a k15. Unfortunately no k15s survive today. The last one no 98 disappeared in 1995 after she collapsed during a shunt.

[jhb171achill]

Indeed, Lough Erne - you jogged my memory on that. 98 was latterly (I think) 595 or 525 or something like that... it was numbered thus until it collapsed, as it had remained in its last NIR livery while at Whitehead. The all-over maroon had faded to an all-over salmony pink! Pity - but it suffered from post-war GNR disease: poor quality wood used in its framework superstructure. All of those few surviving ex-GNR coaches initially acquired by the RPSI fell apart like that, except No. 9 - and it survived to the present day on account of having been extensively rebuilt at Whitehead in the 90s.

[minister_for_hardship]

I seem to remember seeing a pic of one of the Inchicore 'cabs', a loco with attached coach effort in lined green somewhere in GSR days.

 

 

Ah, I knew I wasn't doting....

[kenbac]

Thanks to all who answered this query.

Greatly appreciated.

Kenbac

[jhb171achill]

Correct, Horsetan. In my grandfather's day at Inchicore, they would whinge if the drawing office used too many pencils! True!

[jhb171achill]

Correct, Horsetan.

 

Plans were made at one stage (jhb171achill's grandfather's period at Inchicore) for a standard series of new narrow gauge coaches, for example. They were intended for the West Clare and C & L; possibly also the T & D if it were to survive. Both Cork lines and the Schull and Skibbereen were not included as they were either closed, or proposed for closure. These were to be not unlike C & L stock in length and class of accommodation, but would have looked more modern externally.

 

Sadly, a shortage of halfpennies, sixpences, shillings farthings and thruppeny bits resulted in their never even reaching the drawing board (otherwise I'd probably have a copy of the drawing!).

 

Numerous plans for fleets of new road freight vehicles were also stalled at planning level, as were many locomotive and coach proposals.

[jhb171achill]

There was also, at one time, a proposal to make the Arigna - Dromod section broad gauge for the carriage of coal, and another investigation into automated unloading of narrow gauge wagons into broad gauge ones at Dromod. There were also plans for five B1a's, not three. 803 was to be called Deirdre, and 804 Grainne. For the DSER section, three 4.6.2 tank engines, huge beasts not unlike a tank version of an 800, were also planned, and got to drawing stage.

 

Limerick Junction was investigated with a view to making it into a "proper" station, with the convoluted bay platform arrangements scrapped, and a down platform installed on the main line. None was proceeded with. Meanwhile, north, the GNR were perusing brochures from numerous diesel manufacturers in the early fifties; I've one beside me here from North British. Again, a lack of ££££ put paid to it all.

[Weshty]

Great thread, if only to emphasis for younger members (at the risk of sounding like the Python's Four Yorkshiremen) just how little money there was in this country at the time. Skin of a rasher time.

 

It is a minor miracle that anything was actually preserved.

[Garfield]

There was also, at one time, a proposal to make the Arigna - Dromod section broad gauge for the carriage of coal...

 

Now there's the basis for an interesting layout... coal trains, cattle specials, and passenger connections to Dublin and Sligo.

 

Meanwhile, north, the GNR were perusing brochures from numerous diesel manufacturers in the early fifties; I've one beside me here from North British. Again, a lack of ££££ put paid to it all.

 

The GNR also looked at electrifying the Dublin-Belfast line. There are drawings of proposed diesel and electric designs in past copie of New Irish Lines (can't remember the exact issue offhand).

[jhb171achill]

A rare exception to the grey all over locos and freight stock was the Cavan & Leitrim's ballast wagon. The C & L painted it yellow (all over). In these days virtually everything used for maintenance is yellow, but prior to 1970 this was unknown.

 

But - the C & L did it - and the GSR continued it. The wagon had standard "G S" markings in black on the yellow background. CIE used grey later on.

[Mayner]

There was also, at one time, a proposal to make the Arigna - Dromod section broad gauge for the carriage of coal, and another investigation into automated unloading of narrow gauge wagons into broad gauge ones at Dromod. There were also plans for five B1a's, not three. 803 was to be called Deirdre, and 804 Grainne. For the DSER section, three 4.6.2 tank engines, huge beasts not unlike a tank version of an 800, were also planned, and got to drawing stage.

 

Limerick Junction was investigated with a view to making it into a "proper" station, with the convoluted bay platform arrangements scrapped, and a down platform installed on the main line. None was proceeded with. Meanwhile, north, the GNR were perusing brochures from numerous diesel manufacturers in the early fifties; I've one beside me here from North British. Again, a lack of ££££ put paid to it all.

 

I sometimes think that the GSR was a much more astute and better run company than it was ever given credit for. GSR management were faced with a similar challenge to the LMS and Penn-Central in amalgamating two major companies with quite differing operating and engineering traditions, against a background of declining revenue and road competition, together with catching up on maintenance following WW1 and repairing Civil War damage.

 

The GSR seems to have been much more successful in lobbying Government in relation to road competition than the railways in Northern Ireland, the ability to operate road and rail services in the 26 counties placed the GSR was in a much stronger position than the GNR, NCC having bought out or eliminated most of the competition.

 

Once it had established a virtual monopoly of road and rail transport the GSR seems to have been equally ruthless as the Stormont Government of the 50s & 60s in closing uneconomic railway lines.

 

There was little point in the GSR committing capital to building modern new locos and rolling stock, while at the same time lobbying Government to close nearly 900 miles of branch and secondary lines.

 

It looks like the 1950s time warp of ancient and modern locos and stock on scenic lines in West Cork or Kerry may only have arose as a result of war breaking out in Europe in 1939 stalling the implementation of GSRs closure plans.

 

JHB

 

I am not sure if buying a diesel from NBL would have been such a good idea. The reputation was so poor that New Zealand Railways rejected the offer of a free demonstrator and instead went to GM and eventually ordered over 100 locos of the same class

Edited January 20, 2015 by Mayner

[minister_for_hardship]

The GSR had it tough, a triple whammy of WW1 and Civil War legacies and then worldwide depression from '29.

They weren't slow to experiment...Sentinel shunters and railcars/Drumm battery train/various gimcracks for increasing steam efficiency, etc. I'm sorry for all the fanboys out there, but the 800s were rather unnecessary white (or is that green?) elephants.

 

Pity they had to strip almost all pre-GSR locos of their sometimes evocative names, doubtless they found their way into the melting pot to make brass bearings or something. Think one of the biggest losses to preservation was the Tramore 2-2-2, word on the street had it that it might be an early candidate for preservation had it not come a cropper.

 

NBL also tendered CIE with a centre cab loco, but they chose GM instead, have a drawing of it that might-have-been somewhere.

Edited January 20, 2015 by minister_for_hardship

[jhb171achill]

When I get a minute to do so, I'll scan in a photo of the type of thing Dundalk considered buying from NB. I agree with you, Mayner, NB probably would have been a bad buy.

 

After inclusion into the UTA and CIE, neither company had anything by NB and the GNR diesels would soon have fallen victim to Inchicore's distrust (for good reasons!) of anything non-GM. It's interesting to speculate that in the light of the re-engining of the A and C classes, would CIE have opted to re-engine NB products (the "H" class?). Would the UTA have prolonged the Derry Road, or goods in the north, or just switched any locos they got to the NCC? In which case, the all-railcar status of the NCC and the CDR-like haulage of the Derry goods by railcar wouldn't have happened!

 

Would one or two have been in use in only recent years on Poyntzpass ballast trains? Would they have monopolise the Enterprise until 201-class tines, thus eliminating the need for the 70 class sets, certainly the (unsuccessful) Hunslets, and 111-3?

 

Back to the original point of this thread - how would a NB loco look in black'n'tan!!!