Is this a 72-seat Open First?

[hexagon789]

I saw this photo of 7140 branded as a First in a Flickr gallery a while ago, and I'm wondering if it's my eyes or do the seats not line up with the windows?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tramfan/14647733553/

[Mayner]

7 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

I saw this photo of 7140 branded as a First in a Flickr gallery a while ago, and I'm wondering if it's my eyes or do the seats not line up with the windows?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tramfan/14647733553/

7140 is classed as a Standard Open In Locomotives and Rolling Stock of CIE & NIR 3rd edition.

7107 & 7110 are classed as 64 Seat 1sts.

7140 re-classified as a 1st with existing seating arrangements as demand for 1st Class travel built up following the introduction of the new trains.

 

[hexagon789]

7 hours ago, Mayner said:

7140 is classed as a Standard Open In Locomotives and Rolling Stock of CIE & NIR 3rd edition.

7107 & 7110 are classed as 64 Seat 1sts.

7140 re-classified as a 1st with existing seating arrangements as demand for 1st Class travel built up following the introduction of the new trains.

 

 

Does the book say if any other Standards were up-classed to Firsts?

Also, it's interesting that it says: "re-classified as a 1st with existing seating arrangements as demand for 1st Class travel built up following the introduction of the new trains", as the photo I linked dates from July 1984 which as I understood it was when the first two Mk3 sets entered service which suggests to me 7140 orginally entered service branded as a First rather than later being reclassified.

[Mayner]

14 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

 

Does the book say if any other Standards were up-classed to Firsts?

Also, it's interesting that it says: "re-classified as a 1st with existing seating arrangements as demand for 1st Class travel built up following the introduction of the new trains", as the photo I linked dates from July 1984 which as I understood it was when the first two Mk3 sets entered service which suggests to me 7140 orginally entered service branded as a First rather than later being reclassified.

The book just lists stock in service in 1987 with regard to 7140 the book simply states:

"Number Series 7111-7194 See 7101 Series for details."

7101-7106 are listed as 72 Seat Open Standards introduced 1983.

 

The MK3s were introduced in 3 batches the 1st batch supplied almost complete from BREL, the 2nd supplied in CKD form and assembled at Inchacore, the 3rd batch built at Inchacore to BREL design.

In the absence of information from an official source,  7111-7194 are likely to from the second batch of MK3 coaches which were supplied to CIE rather than the original 1st batch of coaches.

Its unlikely that the two MK3 coaches listed as 1st Class 7107 & 7110 would have been able to cover all the MK3 carriage links that required 1st class accommodation, re-classifying a Standard as a 1st would have been a quick & simple way of increasing available 1st Class accommodation.

I don't not know whether 7140 entered service as a 1st and was subsequently re-classified as a Standard or the opposite occurred, it might be worth while having a trawl through IRRS Journals during that period for information on MK3 stock and carriage allocation.

[hexagon789]

9 hours ago, Mayner said:

The book just lists stock in service in 1987 with regard to 7140 the book simply states:

"Number Series 7111-7194 See 7101 Series for details."

7101-7106 are listed as 72 Seat Open Standards introduced 1983.

 

The MK3s were introduced in 3 batches the 1st batch supplied almost complete from BREL, the 2nd supplied in CKD form and assembled at Inchacore, the 3rd batch built at Inchacore to BREL design.

In the absence of information from an official source,  7111-7194 are likely to from the second batch of MK3 coaches which were supplied to CIE rather than the original 1st batch of coaches.

Its unlikely that the two MK3 coaches listed as 1st Class 7107 & 7110 would have been able to cover all the MK3 carriage links that required 1st class accommodation, re-classifying a Standard as a 1st would have been a quick & simple way of increasing available 1st Class accommodation.

I don't not know whether 7140 entered service as a 1st and was subsequently re-classified as a Standard or the opposite occurred, it might be worth while having a trawl through IRRS Journals during that period for information on MK3 stock and carriage allocation.

 

Thank you for the informative reply. Regarding the IRRS journals, which is an excellent suggestion, I don't possess any.

I gather that you can get back issues from them by e-mailing them though? At least a look in their website suggests this.

My only problem is which issue or issues would have such information as the older issues in particular don't seem to have the content indexed as with more recent issues.

[hexagon789]

I wonder if Issue 97 - June 1985 is a good shout, has a nice picture of an 071 hauling Mk3s on the front cover.

Though likely an issue around July 1984 might be more likely the "right" one.

[DiveController]

On 5/4/2019 at 11:58 AM, hexagon789 said:

I saw this photo of 7140 branded as a First in a Flickr gallery a while ago, and I'm wondering if it's my eyes or do the seats not line up with the windows?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tramfan/14647733553/

They wouldn't line up as most of the Mk3s had 9 sets of 8 seats facing across 2 tables but only 8 windows per coach side. The occasional one has one set removed for wheelchair spaces but the spring remained the same.

7157 was also listed as a Super Standard 64F fitted with a cocktail bar (Traction & Travel, Jones '87, '89 & Irish Railways, Fox '96) and 7104, 7133 & 7156 as 48F (Jones & Marshall, 2004). 7161 & 7162 became Executive coaches by then but no further info on 7140 at all.

Incidentally Mk3s are mentioned in IRRS journals about Vol16 pp.42, 43, 95, 151, 152, 205, 251, 252,315, 360, 363, 364, 420, 421     Vol. 17 pp.49,50, 88, 147, 283, 307    Vol. 18 pp.252, 253   Vol. 19 pp. 93,124,247    Vol. 19 pp. 344, 398, 447, 448

& Vol. 20 pp.26, 54, 140, 204, 254, 292, 389, 444 so may concentrate your efforts there

Edited May 7, 2019 by DiveController

[hexagon789]

9 hours ago, DiveController said:

They wouldn't line up as most of the Mk3s had 9 sets of 8 seats facing across 2 tables but only 8 windows per coach side.

Not in a Standard, but in the orginal Super Standards 7107, 7110 and later 7157 they would with the 64-Seat arrangement. Certainly the seats line up perfectly in the photo of 7157 I've seen.

 

9 hours ago, DiveController said:

7157 was also listed as a Super Standard 66F fitted with a cocktail bar

Interesting, I wasn't aware any vehicles other than Executive 7161 had a cocktail bar. Certainly none of the ITG books mentioned that.

9 hours ago, DiveController said:

Incidentally Mk3s are mentioned in IRRS journals about Vol16 pp.42, 43, 95, 151, 152, 205, 251, 252,315, 360, 363, 364, 420, 421     Vol. 17 pp.49,50, 88, 147, 283, 307    Vol. 18 pp.252, 253   Vol. 19 pp. 93,124,247    Vol. 19 pp. 344, 398, 447, 448

& Vol. 20 pp.26, 54, 140, 204, 254, 292, 389, 444 so may concentrate your efforts there

Thank you for the list, that should prove very useful.

[DiveController]

I think in your original posting of 7140 it has likely been rebranded as 'First' in the original ST livery and the windows and seats don't match as Mayner suggest. 7157 is 64F (correctly my typo in post above) for the outset and hence would match up as you say. My error on the cocktail, different books using the same suffix character to mean different things in different books). If you have a link or photo for 7157 it would be interesting to post it here. Always liked that photo of 7140 though.

[hexagon789]

13 hours ago, DiveController said:

I think in your original posting of 7140 it has likely been rebranded as 'First' in the original ST livery and the windows and seats don't match as Mayner suggest.

I've had the ITG 1987 book for a a good number of months and from that I could see that 7107, 7110 and 7157 were the Open Firsts or Super Standards (not sure when IÉ changed the designation).

Then in roaming Google I came across a picture of 7140, dated July 1984, branded as a First, I simply thought it had been converted to a Standard by 1987 as 7110 was converted to a Standard sometime between 1987 and 1994 according to the ITG books. This first photo isn't really clear enough to make out the seating.

Then recently I came across that very sharp photo of 7140 I linked above again dated July 1984 and again with it carrying "InterCity 1st" branding. It bothered me as it looked as though the seats didn't line up, but thanks to Mayner I now know that 7140 was reclassified as a First with no alterations to seating.

Now being July 1984, as I understand it this is when the first Mk3s entered passenger service, there being two rakes. I have not yet been able to find details out which vehicles these rakes consisted of, except a photo of a set at Cork in July 1984 shows Genny Van 7601 and I have those two photos of 7140 as a First.

Now 7107 and 7110 are apparently from the initial batch of vehicles sent over from Derby Litchurch Lane Works fully assembled (this running from 7101 to 7111), so I'm still a little confused as to how 7140 could be in service so soon, unless some Mk3s were built in 1983, and also how quickly CIE decided that only two Super Standards was insufficient and at the very least branded 7140 as one immediately prior to it entering service it seems.

I have since acquired a copy of Irish Railway Rambler, and in its section on Mk3s there is an interior shot of 7114 at Hueston in 1986, up-classed to a First with antimacassars and orange curtains! The text notes that requirements for First Class particularly on the Cork line saw not infrequent upclassing of Standards as Firsts. There is no mention of whether 7114 carried exterior branding like 7140.

So it remains to be seen if any vehicles other than 7140 were branded Firsts while essentially remaining Standards internally bar curtains etc.

I still don't understand IÉ's original plan for the Mk3s, hence why I would like to read the IRRS journals to see if there is any mention of it.

Certainly to start with until the Composites (7165-72), were built it seems that most of the Mk3 workings would've been Standard Class only, presumably with 7107 and 7110 being dedicated to the best Cork workings rather as with the CityGold vehicles after they were converted in 1993.

13 hours ago, DiveController said:

7157 is 64F (correctly my typo in post above) for the outset and hence would match up as you say. My error on the cocktail, different books using the same suffix character to mean different things in different books).

That's alright, I know exactly what you mean - it's so easy to misread something like that!

13 hours ago, DiveController said:

If you have a link or photo for 7157 it would be interesting to post it here.

From The Wanderer's site, the antimacassars can be seen on the seat headrests and it can be seen that the seats line-up:

There's a photo of ex-First 7107 on the same site as well.

7110 as I mentioned seems to have been converted to a 72-Seat Standard at some point, while 7107 became a 32F/32S composite and 7157 remained a full First, both of the latter being fully declassified at some point I gather.

Certainly from some lists of Mk3 set formations from 2003-2009, neither appears to have even used as a Composite or First being formed in the Standard Class portions of sets.

13 hours ago, DiveController said:

Always liked that photo of 7140 though.

Same here, I actually prefer it to 'Tippex'!

[Rob]

Very interesting info for a Mark 3 devotee like myself  !

Btw, where can one find lists of Mark 3 formations from 2003 / 2009 as mentioned?

[hexagon789]

15 minutes ago, Rob said:

Very interesting info for a Mark 3 devotee like myself  !

Btw, where can one find lists of Mark 3 formations from 2003 / 2009 as mentioned?

Some sample 2003 formations were kindly provided for me in this post:

And you'll find set formations from 2007 until 2009 withdrawal in this thread on IRN:

http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/912/MK3-News?page=1#.VgGtI5eIXK4.

 

[hexagon789]

Hi guys, this time you'll be glad to hear I'm not here to bother you all with more questions(!)

 

Instead I'm going to summarise some things I've deduced and see if anyone agrees.

 

I recently acquired a set of consecutive CIÉ timetables from the early 1980s and with these I've pieced together how I think the early Mk3 operations developed.

So, to start in 1980, from another thread on this forum I believe in that year as regards the Mk2d stock 5 sets were generally in traffic, with a sixth at busy periods.

I assume that this would mean two sets for Dublin-Cork and one for each of Limerick, Waterford and Galway?

From 1980-1983 there are services with Superstandard on the latter three routes in addition to Dublin-Cork, but in 1984 and 1985, only Dublin-Cork services have Superstandard.

Now, if I look in my Doyle/Hirsch 1987 rolling stock book, the Mk2d composites which were fitted out as such are all declassified so what I think happened when the Mk3s were introduced from 1984 was that a decision was made to only have Superstandard on the Cork line and run everything else as Standard only.

This would explain the declassifying of the Mk2d composites and the fact that only two Mk3 Firsts were built until 1987.

So, I assume therefore that CIE decided to run two Mk3 sets on Dublin-Cork with Firsts, and in the early years Mk2d sets as well also with Firsts, with Mk3 Standards being upclassed to cover for unavailable 7107 or 7110.

Then by 1987 CIÉ decides, for whatever reason, to re-introduce Superstandard (now First Class) on the other InterCity routes, hence the construction of the Mk3 composites while 7157 was also built to give an additional full First for the Cork line.

Does this seem plausible, as I am working off an awful lot of assumptions?

 

Cheers, Ben.

[hexagon789]

I was thinking how best to go about this, posting-up the information I've found on the Mk IIIs. Seeing as one of the original things which prompted that search was the opening question in this thread it seems appropriate to answer that.

 

So I can now confirm that 7140 entered service as a "First" while internally being no different to a standard. Indeed, all First Class in Mk III sets consisted of a standard marshalled between Generator Van and diner until the first Mk III Super Standards were converted in 1986.

7120 and 7140 were both seemingly branded externally as "INTER CITY 1st", while internally having the same 72-seat arrangement as the Standards, for the launch of Mk III services from the 2nd July 1984, the first two rakes in service comprising:

7601, 7140 (First), 7402, 7126, 7125, 7128, 7129 & 7141

7602, 7120 (First), 7401, 7127, 7121, 7124 & 7123.

 

I can also confirm that 7107 and 7110 did not enter service as Super Standards but were both later converted. 7107 entered service as a Conference coach and 7110 as a Standard.

 

[hexagon789]

Can now confirm 7107 was converted to 64 seats in early 1986 with 7110 later in the year, though not all seats lined-up with the windows. Some airline seating remained at one end of the vehicle, but with more generous legroom than usual.