RichL's Layout Idea

[RichL]

Since my previous topic in the layouts area ended up being hijacked as a general track discussion (fine by me) I decided to start afresh. As a reminder of what I envisaged, here's the original photo that inspired me...

...something that fits nicely into a corner of a room and has loads of atmosphere. OK, Penzance isn't exactly Ireland, but most Irish termini are well spread out, even on branch lines to nowhere. This could be made into a convincing Irish layout with a little imagination. The idea could have quite a small footprint in 4mm scale, assuming a lot is left 'off-stage'...

The narrow gauge track on my layout would be far more limited than in the photo and the map. It is really a stage for some interesting modelling. I kind of envisage a very minor independent line along the lines of the Waterford & Tramore or similar, with some very dodgy stock and operating practices. There would also be a bit of through running from a 'proper' railway - and  a tiny bit of narrow gauge.

I use the Waterford and Tramore inspiration very loosely, as I really need a line with a little more operational interest - and I think the W&T is just that little bit too unique and awkward to copy closely. In the course of my research I have found a few other lines that could also provide inspiration. Short, predominantly passenger lines, completely isolated from their neighbours, seem to be a bit of an Irish speciality. The little-known Newry, Warrenpoint & Rostrevor line was another one, if only for a short while. It looks very interesting, but it was absorbed by the Great Northern fairly early on. There seems to be little information that I can easily find, beyond a bit of basic information about the locomotives. Nearly all photos etc. are from after the line was taken over and substantially rebuilt by the GNR. The Cork, Blackrock & Passage is another of the genre - but regauged to 3ft gauge in 1900. There is more information about this one available online (including a Facebook Group) and in books, but almost no useful information about the broad gauge rolling stock. I do like the relatively intensive nature of the service provided though. A freelance line combining aspects of all three could be modelled, filling in gaps with examples from anywhere I can find them.

The CB&P seems to have been a really interesting line in broad gauge days, with stock and features almost in the same league as the Waterford & Tramore, but maybe not quite! Aspects of it could definitely be incorporated in the layout. Here is the Cork Terminus, for example, in broad gauge days. (each square is approximately 300mm in 4mm scale)

There are several features that I like, such as the turntable at the buffer stop end of the platform. The Station at Passage West had a similar turntable, but was otherwise very basic.

Most of this station was still intact a few years after the closure of the line

(Britain From Above Image - ref.  www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/xpw042357)

The plan is to build a bit of stock before I build the layout. That should give me more time to research and plan the details. In the meantime, I have my test track to run things on.

What are peoples views on modelling a freelance Irish railway? Is it a good idea, or should I try and model a railway that really existed - even if the station is fictitious?

[jhb171achill]

It’s a GOOD idea, certainly!

However, given the individuality of the lines you mention (and no actual railway ever reached Rostrevor...), what might be better is an imaginary branchline with, perhaps, a distillery-related private siding?

In a city setting, maybe an imaginary single-platform terminus, closed some time  between 1930 and 1955?

Something “Street”, “Road” or “Place”, likely in Derry, Belfast, Dublin or Cork?

Given good research results and photos of what would have run into and out of the imaginary location, the only big thing to think of is what era, and whether UTA, GNR  or CIE?

[Mayner]

The Newry, Warrenpoint and Rostrevor and the Newry & Armagh certainly fitted into the disreputable minor railway category until absorbed by the GNR in the 1870s. GR Mahon wrote a series in the IRRS Journal ( late 1960s-early 1970s) on Irish Railways during the 1860s & 1870s the sections on the two Newry companies read like a soap opera as the companies struggled to operate their lines.

One possible scenario would be to presume that the NW&R was built as a pioneering narrow gauge line with similar stock to the Ravenglass & Eskdale sharing a cramped joint terminal with the Newry & Armagh. Dublin Bridge anyone?

[Galteemore]

On 8/29/2020 at 11:06 PM, RichL said:

 

The CB&P seems to have been a really interesting line in broad gauge days, with stock and features almost in the same league as the Waterford & Tramore, but maybe not quite! Aspects of it could definitely be incorporated in the layout. Here is the Cork Terminus, for example, in broad gauge days. (each square is approximately 300mm in 4mm scale)

There are several features that I like, such as the turntable at the buffer stop end of the platform. The Station at Passage West had a similar turntable, but was otherwise very basic.

Most of this station was still intact a few years after the closure of the line

(Britain From Above Image - ref.  www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/xpw042357)

The plan is to build a bit of stock before I build the layout. That should give me more time to research and plan the details. In the meantime, I have my test track to run things on.

What are peoples views on modelling a freelance Irish railway? Is it a good idea, or should I try and model a railway that really existed - even if the station is fictitious?

By all means! There were enough ‘might have beens’ in the minds of Victorian railway planners to add another. Irish lines frequently exchanged rolling stock, so you could easily ‘cascade’ recognisable locos and wagons etc. There were even a few cases of standard U.K. designs being used (such as the LNW tanks on the DWWR), and the forthcoming CBSC 0-6-0Ts from OO Works. If the track gauge is correct, which you have sorted, and the scenery is right, that’s half the ‘Irish’ side of the  picture anyway. 

Edited August 31, 2020 by Galteemore

[David Holman]

The Limerick market branch could be one inspiration, though for mixed gauge might have beens, the city of Derry has more than a few options. Another thought is the enormous white elephant that was the Ulster and Connaught Railway. Had that been built, there would have been several mixed gauge opportunities right across Ireland.

[Buz]

Hi RichL's

I would first off avoid like the plague mixed gauge track it would be an absolute pain to make and wire etc.

Unless of course you just happen to be a well practiced master model maker and technomage.

I would pick a prototype IRISH track plan that meets your space constraints and aesthetic requirements, even if everything else used doesn't match the track plan origin the end result looks more believable.

The idea of a dodgie railway company or light railway, that the occasional and well chosen oddity and second hand dimension can be used does have a certain appeal.

The problem I am having envisioning things is the Penzance picture with its 7' 1/4" std gauge and 4' 8 1/2" narrow gauge

You will need to create scenery that looks Irish making a point of using key features that could not be anywhere else in the world.

The usual rider applies make sure you allow for extension in the plan, even if you are absolutely positively NOT going to extend it the things breed and multiply when your not looking.

Using Street or Road in the station name almost precludes the need for a town or village at the station just a sign that says St Finnian 5 miles  that way covers that.

Will it be a good christian railway powered by steam, or a nasty diesel locomotive powered railway even both, also needs to be factored in right at the start of planning as well as the trains.

It will have a strong influence on surrounding scenery items as well.

On the question of prototypical or freelance model railway I refer you to page one rule one of the model railway rule book

Considering the Madder Valley works as a cohesive whole the world is your oyster.

regards John

 

Edited August 30, 2020 by Buz

[David Holman]

Further to the Ulster & Connaught idea, a few notes are in the Clogher Valley book, because the U&C would have traversed some of its track, along with the Cavan & Leitrim and Bessbrooke and Newry. The railway would have gone westward to both Galway [dual gauge possibilities here] and Clifden [somewhat less busy]. It would have crossed the 'western corridor' line at Tuam, where there was a sugar beet factory of course.

  Cork meanwhile offers possibilities, as there were two narrow gauge lines there and a total of three standard gauge termini as well - Bandon, Macroom and GSWR. Some kind of link line offers all sorts of possibilities, including a prototypical background to a line going along the riverside.

Edited August 30, 2020 by David Holman

[RichL]

Many thanks for the positive and interesting responses. I was on a 50 km walk yesterday and am only slowly recovering my faculties. I shall respond to everyone in due course.

[RichL]

On 8/30/2020 at 12:25 AM, jhb171achill said:

It’s a GOOD idea, certainly!

However, given the individuality of the lines you mention (and no actual railway ever reached Rostrevor...), what might be better is an imaginary branchline with, perhaps, a distillery-related private siding?

In a city setting, maybe an imaginary single-platform terminus, closed some time  between 1930 and 1955?

Something “Street”, “Road” or “Place”, likely in Derry, Belfast, Dublin or Cork?

Given good research results and photos of what would have run into and out of the imaginary location, the only big thing to think of is what era, and whether UTA, GNR  or CIE?

At this stage I have no hard views on where the model should be located. I kind of like the concept of a short, independent line simply to allow me to model a few oddities as well as the normal stuff that so many people already run. Short trains and small locomotives also allow for a smaller layout. The 3 short lines I mentioned do seem to have a bit in common - built by Dargan and quite possibly with very similar rolling stock in the early years.

I have thought of a number of scenarios. Here is just one, as an example.

Newry is a kind of 'Cinderella' patch of Ireland (in railway terms) where UTA, GNR and CIE, not forgetting the LNWR and narrow gauge, were close by at one time or another - though not all at the same time. It is also relatively populous. Adding just one or two of the many proposed additions to the railway network in the area - some of which got as far as Acts of Parliament - provides lots of potential. There were proposals for railways east from Warrenpoint and also south from Newcastle. Another line that got an Act was one from Downpatrick to Newry. The Newry & Armagh was originally supposed to extend to Enniskillen (the last section jointly with the Dundalk & Enniskillen - later Irish North Western). At a push that could even bring SL&NC trains to the area. An independent line could have survived until at least the late 1940s as it would inevitably have avoided the GSR amalgamation. With even a minor cross-border addition, an independent line in Newry could also have avoided absorption into the UTA. Economics make that all unlikely however - but maybe not quite as unlikely as some railways that were actually built

However, as you suggest, one can spend far too long imagining scenarios, when an ambiguous 'might be anywhere' kind of terminus would probably be good enough.

On 8/30/2020 at 5:16 AM, Mayner said:

The Newry, Warrenpoint and Rostrevor and the Newry & Armagh certainly fitted into the disreputable minor railway category until absorbed by the GNR in the 1870s. GR Mahon wrote a series in the IRRS Journal ( late 1960s-early 1970s) on Irish Railways during the 1860s & 1870s the sections on the two Newry companies read like a soap opera as the companies struggled to operate their lines.

One possible scenario would be to presume that the NW&R was built as a pioneering narrow gauge line with similar stock to the Ravenglass & Eskdale sharing a cramped joint terminal with the Newry & Armagh. Dublin Bridge anyone?

I managed to find online some old copies of Herapath's Journal and newspaper extracts from the formation period of these lines. They make fascinating reading! Lord Newry almost seems to have been a mini-George Hudson - financing one line with funds meant for another etc. There is certainly the potential for NG in the area. As mentioned above, extensions from Newcastle and Warrenpoint could have joined up somewhere like Kilkeel or Greencastle, for example - one NG one SG.

On 8/30/2020 at 8:00 AM, Galteemore said:

By all means! There were enough ‘might have beens’ in the minds of Victorian railway planners to add another. Irish lines frequently exchanged rolling stock, so you could easily ‘cascade’ recognisable locos and wagons etc. There were even a few cases of standard U.K. designs being used (such as the LNW tanks on the DWWR), and the forthcoming CBSC 0-6-0Ts from OO Works. If the track gauge is correct, which you have sorted, and the scenery is right, that’s half the ‘Irish’ side of the  picture anyway. 

Great minds think alike - or maybe not so great in my case

On 8/30/2020 at 8:00 AM, David Holman said:

The Limerick market branch could be one inspiration, though for mixed gauge might have beens, the city of Derry has more than a few options. Another thought is the enormous white elephant that was the Ulster and Connaught Railway. Had that been built, there would have been several mixed gauge opportunities right across Ireland.

As mentioned above, the possibility of a 5'3" line extending from Newry to Eniskillen was a possibility too. There are also plenty of potential places where NG lines could have been developed with more determination. There are also strange might-have-been ideas that I found in my researches, like the idea in WW2 to convert the Strabane-Derry NG line to broad gauge, so as to allow troop trains etc to travel south without crossing the border. If the Finn Valley Railway had also never converted to NG then other possibilities emerge. The possibilities are not endless, but there are many nevertheless. I could spend the rest of my life dreaming up scenarios and never find the time to build a model railway

On 8/30/2020 at 8:12 AM, Buz said:

Hi RichL's

I would first off avoid like the plague mixed gauge track it would be an absolute pain to make and wire etc.

Unless of course you just happen to be a well practiced master model maker and technomage.

I would pick a prototype IRISH track plan that meets your space constraints and aesthetic requirements, even if everything else used doesn't match the track plan origin the end result looks more believable.

The idea of a dodgie railway company or light railway, that the occasional and well chosen oddity and second hand dimension can be used does have a certain appeal.

The problem I am having envisioning things is the Penzance picture with its 7' 1/4" std gauge and 4' 8 1/2" narrow gauge

You will need to create scenery that looks Irish making a point of using key features that could not be anywhere else in the world.

The usual rider applies make sure you allow for extension in the plan, even if you are absolutely positively NOT going to extend it the things breed and multiply when your not looking.

Using Street or Road in the station name almost precludes the need for a town or village at the station just a sign that says St Finnian 5 miles  that way covers that.

Will it be a good christian railway powered by steam, or a nasty diesel locomotive powered railway even both, also needs to be factored in right at the start of planning as well as the trains.

It will have a strong influence on surrounding scenery items as well.

On the question of prototypical or freelance model railway I refer you to page one rule one of the model railway rule book

Considering the Madder Valley works as a cohesive whole the world is your oyster.

regards John

 

Thanks for a very comprehensive response to my ideas!

Firstly, I am happy to build mixed gauge track - that is a large part of my concept's appeal - something different to the norm.

Unfortunately, typical track layouts take up a lot of space, even in remote places. Penzance is not too different in overall concept to a few genuinely Irish 'tight' locations, even if the exact location of each component may be different in relation to each other. Killybegs, Warrenpoint, Schull spring to mind. The main difference from the norm would be the mix of gauges, which is a personal choice and would be different in organisation to Penzance.

Making sure that the buildings, scenery, atmosphere is Irish is well understood, but difficult to define. It would be so easy to end up with a caricature. Irish architecture, for example,  is/was incredibly diverse - particularly in larger towns and cities. I am reminded of this view of Cork...

One way or another, Rule One will have to apply!

On 8/30/2020 at 10:37 AM, David Holman said:

Further to the Ulster & Connaught idea, a few notes are in the Clogher Valley book, because the U&C would have traversed some of its track, along with the Cavan & Leitrim and Bessbrooke and Newry. The railway would have gone westward to both Galway [dual gauge possibilities here] and Clifden [somewhat less busy]. It would have crossed the 'western corridor' line at Tuam, where there was a sugar beet factory of course.

  Cork meanwhile offers possibilities, as there were two narrow gauge lines there and a total of three standard gauge termini as well - Bandon, Macroom and GSWR. Some kind of link line offers all sorts of possibilities, including a prototypical background to a line going along the riverside.

Thanks again for the suggestions. Cork was very interesting in that almost every line more or less deliberately avoided the rest, except for the GS&WR absorbing the Cork & Youghal Railway. The Cork & Macroom Direct even severed its connection to the CB&SC (twice!). I read that the odd gauge of the Cork Tramways was determined by the possibility of conveying NG traffic across the city. One early map of a proposal for the Cork Blackrock & Passage swung round to Bandon beyond Passage, with a branch to Kinsale predating the CB&SC branch there. The possibilities are endless!

Probably it is best in my case to be as ambiguous as possible.

It's not a big issue at the moment though as building some stock is my priority for now. Must finish my NG wagons etc.!

 

[jhb171achill]

Fascinating thoughts, RichL.

There was also the Bessbrook & Newry narrow gauge, and you mention mixed gauge track. The Dundalk, Newry & Greenore line COULD have ended up with this, if a scheme which appeared to be very near to becoming a reality had progressed in (relatively late) 1909.

The Ulster & Connaught Railway would have had a 300km main line right across Ireland from Clifden (had it become a transatlantic port), and Galway, up through the midlands, Co, Roscommon, and meeting the Cavan & Leitrim end-on at Dromod. From Belturbet it would head in a north-east direction, meeting the Clogher Valley about halfway along its length. At Tynan, it would head across South Armagh to Bessbrook, where it would join up and a terminus in Newry would then feed into a dual-gauge section of the DNGR, to allow access into Greenore Port for Trans-Irish-Sea crossings.

Had it been built, it would have passed through not one significant town en route, and would probably have been the single biggest commercial failure of any railway ever built. It is highly unlikely it would have seen a tenth anniversary, even if it HAD been built. Once the border was created it would of course have had to remain independent - mind you, had the GSR somehow inherited it, they would have lost no time in disposing of such a monumental, and useless, millstone around their necks.

I am very much enjoying the above comments about your proposal. If you do like the idea of a small railways, well, you've the Dundalk, Newry & Greenore Railway, with its LNWR-esque locos and carriages - add in the Ulster & Connaught, and there's your dual-gauge scenario.

A complete through journey would have taken some twelve hours coast to coast. Locomotives would be very probably something like the lough swilly 4.8.0s, and corridor carriages of the sort of dimensions of County Donegal ones would probably have prevailed. 

[RichL]

For broad gauge lines, maybe a long route is believable as they potentially had all the time in the world from the early 1830s to gradually extend. The earliest narrow gauge lines in Ireland were probably 30-40 years too late to envisage anything very long, except in comparatively remote areas like Donegal where few or no railways already existed and public money of one kind or another could guarantee their construction and economic survival. A scheme like the Ulster & Connaught just doesn't tick any of those boxes at all!

Mind you, we ridicule the idea of long NG lines, but South Africa and much of SE Asia (amongst others) used exclusively a gauge only 3" to 6" wider than the Irish 3ft gauge and look how far their lines stretched.

I think any NG line I include in the model would likely be short in nature, simply to make it more believable. Nevertheless, knowledge that the Ulster & Connaught seriously considered a long section of dual gauge track could always be quoted when doubters question my own use of such an idea.

 

[jhb171achill]

I’ve included a piece on the U & C in my next scribblings (“Rails Through Connemara”), as it would have headed from Clifden, somewhat north of the MGWR line, possibly through Leenane (SPECTACULAR scenery) and the Maam Valley to Cong. 

Now, to get it published!!!! The closedown has actually delayed it badly.

[RichL]

Looking forward very much to its publication. In the meantime I am accumulating a few other books to keep me occupied