jhb171achill

A single livery for ALL their trains would look a lot better. Like black'n'tan, or the previous ALL-encompassing green. Strong corporate image..,,

Anything's better than the old livery - even all over freight grey! Does seem retro indeed. Grey 201s next..... Then grey wagons. Oh! Pockets.... It's started......

How to model a midge in 00 scale! Now there's a challenge for the very best here! As essential a part of the BnM scene as wheels on locomotives!

For the modeller, they were delivered in. Sort of light greyish duck-egg blue, with "U T" in black along the side, and the number. They became so grubby that this colour became 100% obscured by dirt, thus the correct "livery" when working is just a complete covering of muck and brake-dust weathering! I don't believe any were ever repainted.

I would agree, Minister. While an owner of an old vehicle can paint it any colour they like; a wrongly painted artefact can always be changed when suitable info becomes available, and quality info is not always available, and nor is everyone that interested in a colour; it pains me to see something wrongly painted because it becomes de facto "wisdom" that it actually did look as it does now, when in use. There are examples of things in all three of the 5ft 3 preservation locations which have been wrongly painted. In some cases (RPSI coaches) this is deliberate. The Dublin blue livery was specifical designed to differentiate the Society's Cravens from IE ones, or other IE stock. The Whitehead ones were meant to have a livery which was not unlike UTA, but not actual UTA. In both cases that works well. The former dining car No. 87 at Whitehead spent its entire life in UTA green until 1967, having been built several years post-NCC, but it looks well turned out in NCC maroon; the coach is of NCC design though a UTA coach. But restored goods stock is another thing entirely, with but a single example that I can think of (the Donegal open wagon in Cultra) being correct. Just about everything in Cultra which has been painted there, rather than outside, is not correct. Thus, in painting a very old carriage, the greatest effort should be made (in my opinion) to get it right. But in the case if this vehicle, and (for example) the Castlederg carriage in Cultra, it has to be recognised that exact information may not exist. While this discussion relates to a full size vehicle for restoration, it should equally be of interest to modellers.

Minister / Jawfin I had that very issue at Downpatrick some years ago when discussing livery policy in general. Thankfully, with very few exceptions it is DCDR's policy to have accurate liveries on things; if you broaden the net wide you often find that other museums don't. There is nothing to see on No. 33 which indicates what livery it had. Certainly, it's later life was in GNR ownership, so it would have spent the greater part of it's working life in GNR polished wood / brown, and maybe that's appropriate given that it is now in ex-GNR condition, as opposed to its original condition. There is some evidence to suggest that it was altered somewhat during its life. The interior is likely to have been like the 1873 Isle of Man "Director's Saloon" which is now in Port Erin Museum. This vehicle started life as a four wheeler but was placed on a bogie underframe along with another four wheeled saloon to make the special coach for the island's Governor through the years. It will certainly have had this layout - that is, seats round the edges sitting against the sides, not facing direction of travel. PM me or email me if you would like to discuss in detail. I remain unsure of where my predecessors in DCDR managed to trace the number... I do seem to recall that is was taken to be No. 30 at one stage, though I suppose it may not matter now. In its original state, I can't help feeling it may have been either a dark blue (between navy and royal blue) or a dark maroon. There is a very old coach in the NRM which appears to be a shade of green which is almost black. As to lining and lettering, leave this with me - I have one resource which might give some clues if I go through it in detail, but with no index this will take time. Some early coaches, as I mentioned before, were "colour-coded"for the benefit of the "great unwashed"! But a coach such as this would have been reserved for the use of the "gentry". Occasionally in those days, the livery of such vehicles followed contemporary stage coach design, thus deep maroons or even black lined in gold. Having just done a good bit of delving in that other-worldly chaos masquerading as my study, I find nothing beyond the above on Ulster Railway liveries. However, I have one further idea; if it produces anything I will post here.

Courtaulds had its own siding - almost a branch line. They had three steam locos of their own at one time but they used NCC (later UTA) wagons kept specially for the purpose. For the record, these were mostly what ended up as NIR ballast wagons, with many having had their sons cut down later. Derelict examples exist at Whitehead and Downpatrick. They were painted a bauxite brown all over, metal included, but were lettered for the UTA in standard style when I knew them.

Wow!!!! Absolutely amazing!

NIR also used the "spoil" wagons - a few were briefly used for ballast after the spoil contract finished. They had few other wagons.

That ex-UTA bogie van is a former GNR "P" van, for express parcels and generally stuck on the back of passenger trains. NIR inherited at least two, but they were little used NIR days. At least one was painted all over maroon by NIR, with a logo and standard style yellow numerals. One is now at Whitehead.

Hello Jawfin Concise information on this doesn't appear to be available. I have nothing among an otherwise extensive amount of livery details. What I do know is that it is very likely that first class, second class, and third class carriages were likely to have been different colours, as many passengers were illiterate. The Dublin & Kingstown Railway painted third class green, and firsts and seconds were dark red and blue - not sure which way round. The Waterford & Tramore painted their firsts and seconds in dark red or blue too, but the other way round! Locomotives may well have been black, but if not, probably green. I'll keep my eye open for further information, but that's the best I can do for the time being! A UR-based layout would be fascinating!

Which type were those, Glenderg? I'd be very interested to see them.

Paul - yes, I thought so! Thanks for clarifying. With black being unusual for any wagon chassis, it had stuck in my mind.

I was very pleased with the way they treated it..... Colourpoint's quality of reproduction these days is second to none.

Colourpoint will indeed have it, Patrick.

Correct, Minister!

Just thinking, Heirflick; when painted cream, rather than orange, I think (but can't be certain) that at least some had black chassis - I did see at least one with a standard brown chassis and cream bubble, but even at the time I remember thinking that this was an aberration.... The one and only class of wagon I can think of offhand which all, without fail, had black chassis, were the NCC "brown vans", throughout all their livery changes. The CIE "roundel" on grey bubbles was like on "H" vans - tan surround, white lettering. Other lettering was white. Orange "bubbles" had black writing and roundel.

Grey, Mr Flick; at least on any I ever saw. Few Irish wagons ever had black chassis, and grey was still the predominant overall wagon colour when they started painting the actual "bubble" orange. I suspect some were painted at Inchicore and others at Limerick. It is therefore conceivable that Limerick might have painted some a different colour. My own photos, and from recollection, all others I have ever seen, show grey. Even if any had been painted black, cement dust would have turned them grey very quickly indeed.

DCDR's E421 ran in a two tone green livery for some years. This was intended to portray what they might have looked like in BCDR ownership... since then it has been authentically repainted, of course.

These things had three liveries. All over grey from introduction until about 1972, then orange with grey chassis, later Irish Cement cream.

The Bus Eireann red and cream has indeed been about a long time. The IOC had it in the 1930s, and the GSWR continued it. Bar the initial CIE green period 1945-62, it went back to red and cream and with variations has remained thus since!

This layout just never ceases to amaze me!

Bold colours are needed for a strong corporate livery. Think Cadburys, Coca-Cola, Yellow Pages etc. that's why the black'n'tan worked well for forty years. The drab greys of the "Enterprise" were woeful from the start. I always thought some sort if bright red and white, like Virgin Atlantic, would have worked well for that. To have a separate DART livery, to me, demands the same on the trains and buses - call it the "jackeen" livery (two tone blue would be no worse than many a thing). Everything else in a clearly identifiable IE livery. If green, so be it; but a bright green, not a wishy washy one - and grey is all right for a freight loco, but not paired with green as a strong passenger livery. Stations should be the same colour, like in "CIE green" days.

Dunsandle it is

Crimson would look better than what's on it! Serious point - I think that a standard strong livery should be applied to everything they have - darts included. It promotes a good identifiable corporate image.