jhb171achill

Same applied, Minister, to almost all steam engine tenders - though there was a very occasional exception on a handful of grey (but not green) ones! Carriages and wagons, naturally, always had the standard left-facing one.

So speaks our Great Sage, Murrayec...... Excellent! What a turn for this discussion to take; meantime, a snail facing the "wrong" way - i.e. a left-handed snail..... Incidentally, the colour rendition on this photograph which was taken about 1960, is excellent. Therefore it may be used as a good reference for CIE loco and (pre-1955) carriage green, as well as the "eau-de-nil".

Haha excellent! And as you can see, Roy Keane is now the president of Persia.

After Mallow - Waterford closed. Now largely in working order on the DCDR, but on long term display in the carriage gallery there.

Absolutely! But the train guard intercepted them at Kilmessan Junction and took them off on the Guinness and whiskey in the local bar..... They were never heard of again, back in Persia.....

That's superb stuff as always. I'd love to see that layout.

Very true. But DUTC picked it up from the London Underground, which arrived at it by a different route. Their logo had a line (a train, or a journey) superimposed on a circle, which represented the underground tunnel. DUTC couldn't copy it directly, even with the colours changed, so they added "speed stripes"! Naturally, the speed stripes represented a 72 year old J15 0.6.0, a 65 year old gas lit six wheeled coach, three loose coupled cattle trucks and a wooden guard's van, hurtling at breakneck speed to Athboy.....!!!

Do you know what irritates me - the manufacturer calling those things "N" class! They didn't run on BR..... though to be fair, they were to all intents and purposes the same as their English cousins..... The "snails" aren't right on them..... One was painted black in the fifties for a very short while with red lining. The rest were either all-grey or 800-style lined green. All were all-grey prior to 1949. Incidentally, the solitary black one had an "eau-de-nil" cabside numeral, like green-painted CIE locos. That was a one-off; other grey CIE locos including the few black ones had pale yellow numerals, though lined eau-d-n snails.

The 0.6.0 - could be resurrected OK - first repaint grey all over, use pale yellow for cab numeral and smaller font, light "eau-de-nil" green (gold-lined) snail facing the other way! No probs.... ;-)

The two above the "snail" are the original DUTC garters on the lined grey, and green backgrounds respectively. For those interested, there's a Dublin & Blessington one there as well - also on original paintwork, as are most in the collection.

I'll be there, Wanderer. I'm going to see the Luas trials to Burtonport as well.

I would say that Mr Murphy has done a huge service to the Irish modelling fraternity, and deserves great accolades for that. I am sure we all support him in his endeavours and I hope we will all continue to do so.

Very true indeed, Old Blarney. Also, when attaching an "eau-de-nil" (never yellow!) "flying snail" to a steam loco tender, the same rule usually applied; the snail faced forward on both sides. I have a notion that I saw a photo somewhere of one facing "backwards" (i.e. the "normal" way round) on a tender, so this may have happened, but not often.

So, no Mk 4's on the Kenmare branch?

The gold lining continued into CIE days too. The green is authentic; it came from the DUTC's own stable, and was the same shade continued into CIE says. Therefore, for anyone wanting the correct pre-1955 carriage green, or CIE bus or (occasional) steam locomotive green, or what the B113 and D class were originally painted in, there ye go. Same paint is on 800, though ignore the UFTM's incorrect "G S" lettering on the tender.

I think the strangest "logo issue" of anything ever in traffic was the RPSI's No. 4 in its last days in NIR use. It had the new NIR logo on one side, and the UTA crest on the other!

Previously to 1941, the Dublin United Tramways Company had a garter on green for a short while, prior to that grey with yellow lining (1960's 121 wasn't the first!). ORIGINALS, on original actual paint, can be seen in Enniskillen Railway Museum, of DUTC garter on grey, DUTC garter on green, and original "snail", complete with DUTC name in Irish along its middle, on green.

E421 bore a two-tone green livery for a while when it first went to the DCDR. It was intended to represent what way the BCDR might have painted it had they survived another forty years.

Black with snail is a livery that nothing ever carried. The E421 class went into traffic in Black and Tan with CIE roundel, and remained that way, or black with white flashes on the ends all their lives. They carried no other livery ever. The earlier E401 class, which is depicted in the cartoon, entered traffic in all silver (roof and chassis included, not dark grey chassis as depicted above). Buffer beams were red and numerals on cab sides were pale green (not black as depicted above). No logos were carried. Thus, no E class ever carried a snail. These earlier locos were eventually painted either black'n'tan or black, and like the 421 class remained thus until withdrawal. I agree with you - both those above look quite well, but neither have any basis in reality.

Absolutely superb stuff, Glenderg. I like your weathering. You're right - the "pre-Tippex" and "post-Tippex" orange shades were exactly the same, not least due to the fact that most were not initially repainted: the "tippex" was just added! The brighter shade had started appearing on new Mk 3s and by 1990 (three years after the white lines started) was becoming universal. Remaining Park Royals and Cravens always retained the older shade. As I said before, it wasn't a huge difference, and with weathering was more or less the same. Your locos and coaches above are spot on.

In model terms, the one shade is perfectly adequate in terms of accuracy for absolutely everything bar newly delivered 071s. Weathering of any models I have see thus treated is more than good enough to replicate actual weathering. Far more models are non weathered than the real thing, where every single thing was weathered after a few days in traffic. I remember seeing a newly painted 141 or 181 in Inchicore about 1970 (black'n'tan, obviously) and it looked so bright (well, the orange and white bits!). For current comparison, Whitehead's 142 and Downpatrick's G613 are exactly right. Obviously, every modeller has their personal preference, and their own take on the importance of accuracy, of lack of it. But for those who do seek accuracy, all colours in all CIE, IE, UTA or NIR liveries can easily be accurately recreated without doubt having to enter into it. Good news for modellers, of course! I'm just imagining a laminate in Vaseline and marmalade livery, though......

For Dave182 and others, if I may assist in putting to bed the confusion over the shades of tan / orange / "golden brown". There were basically four shades, two being only an irrelevantly tiny bit different. A. Original from 1962: unchanged on anything at all, bar brand new 071s, until the late 1970s. B. Exceptionally slightly more orange version of the above, applied to everything painted from maybe about 1980 until the early 90s. C. Distinctly, but only slightly more orange, applied to anything painted after about 1990. D. A very much browner shade - more an orangey-brown than "orange with a brownish tint". This was on newly delivered 071s only: this colour was never used in Inchicore. It came about quite simply because GM painted them the wrong shade in Illinois. The CIE logos were non-standard too; all white, different font, larger roundel size. All 071s with this logo must by default have this one-off light brown, and all "standard orange" must by default have standard logos - if accuracy is desired. Fading did play a part too. If you see a newly painted "E" class, say, or a tin van, in 1966, it looks just as bright orange as a Mk 2 in 1980. But as this colour faded, it looked a bit browner. Thus, a newly outshopped Mk 3 in 1986 would have looked more orange than, let's say, a Dutch van sitting beside it, though painted five years earlier in the same, or nearly same, shade. Postscript: I saw a pic which someone had photoshopped of an 071 in NCC maroon. You've no idea how well it looked!

I'm looking for a 00 scale hi-via jacket so I can go and take a camera round Tara Junction. Any good B & B's round there?

Thought that..... Yes, it would make an amazing layout!

I've an idea that the Guinness track mileage was at its highest extent nearer ten miles than six!