Dublin Suburban operations early 1980's pre DART

[T_Bois]

Hello again folks, 

Many thanks for those who responded to my Q about the NIR Hunslett's ... I'd asked the very same Q on a Facebook group a week ago and had zero responses.

I'd forgotten (from prior research into English railway topics) that the modelling community are often the most informed when it comes to past workings and details to make for realistic projects.

The other area I'm looking at presently is as per the title of this message.

I remember the old C class ploughing their trade around Dublin as a kid and even have an old photo of one departing Dundalk circa 1981 (hard to determine what rolling stock it is - as I almost chopped the locos cab out - file under rubbish kids photo).

So a few Questions I have regarding these operations in the early 80's pre DART

 

* Fairview Depot ... for me synonymous as the DART depot but Wiki shows it was opened in 1950. Was this used as the carriage sidings maintenance site for the Park Royal push pull stock? Or was the stock based at Connolly as a rule?

* push pull operation ... as far as I understand the only locos fitted with push pull in this era were the C class and the 121's ... did 121's ever operate on the suburbans in the pre DART era in lieu of 201's on occasion ... I realise the C class were the mainstay ?

* I have a 1980 public timetable for the Dublin Suburban, unfortunately not a WTT. Did the 201's in push pull mode operate to Dundalk on the half dozen or so trains that ran there or were the Dundalk trains non push pull operated? Similar question ... there were 2 workings to Wicklow each day ... would these have been push pull or not?

* Final Q ... did the push pull stock stable outside of the centre of Dublin at night ? Looks like 3 sets based at Dundalk ... as per Q above ... push pull included is my guess. Anything stable overnight at Bray or did everything return empty to Dublin for servicing etc?

 

Many thanks in advance once again for your sharing your knowledge.

TB

[Mayner]

As far as I recall: My experience is mainly based on travelling and watching Howth-Bray trains and the odd journey on Connolly-Drogheda services during the mid-late 70s.

1. The Dublin based Push Pull sets were based and maintained at Fairview (ex GNR Railcar Shed) until transferred to Connolly Shed during the late 70s in connection with the DART works.

The Push Pull sets were turned on the triangle at Limerick Junction in order to position the loco at the North end of the train so it could be serviced inside Connolly Shed.

2. AEC Push Pull sets were exclusively worked by B201 Class up to the late 80s when 121 Class took over the working the Greystone shuttle with the remaining Push Pull set.

The 201 Class were the mainstay of Dublin Suburban workings until 141/181 Class took over Outer Suburban workings around the same time as the opening of the DART 1984?

3. Push Pull sets mainly worked Howth-Bray-Greystones services, though its possible that they may have worked to Drogheda or Dundalk.

Some push pull sets were withdrawn during the late 70s early 80s as CIE struggled to maintain Driving Trailers and Connector cars to keep the sets in service as the stock became increasingly decrepit.

Outer suburban services are likely to have been conventional mostly early 1950s Inchacore built coaches and Laminate coaches until Park Royal and Craven coaches were cascaded onto suburban and branchline duties following the introduction of MK3 stock from 1984/5 onwards.

4. Fairview and later Connolly and Bray loco depots seem to have been the main bases for Push Pull workings. 

The set in the 1974 Gormonstown crash was a Connolly-Howth empty working that was diverted at Howth Junction after the train ran away (without driver) from East Wall Junction and collided with a Connolly-Drogheda AEC railcar working.

[T_Bois]

That's brilliant John, many thanks.

I have good memories of the late 80's post DART era and did indeed venture out to Greystones in late 1989 with the hope of travelling on a 121 with the last push pull set.

Seems it was taken out of traffic earlier that year and I came back to Bray on a leased NIR DMU !

Looking at the public timetable I hold, the 3 sets that started at Dundalk each morning ran to Bray, Bray and Dun Laoghaire respectively. It does look as if the likely return workings worked back to Connolly and didn't mix them up with Howth workings, ditto the evening trains that ended up at Dundalk. So likely not push pull sets as you say.

 

TB

[geraghtyg]

The first three minutes of THIS youtube video shows passenger operations near Sutton station on the Howth branch, most likely in 1983. There's a bit of everything to be seen: Push-pull, loco hauled, 141/181 class, C Class, Cravens, Park Royals, Laminates and AEC railcars in the formation of some sets. What's great is that there is also audio too. It's not too often you get to hear a C Class accelerating! This video should answer a lot of your queries.

[Darren.d]

I went to school on the push pull trains.dont remember if 121s were on them.do remember the 201s and the railcar plastic seats ,in the winter they would have small pools of water on them from rain running off peoples coats.that was the late 70s.

[Ironroad]

I travelled on the Dublin suburban  trains between Howth Junction and Blackrock daily in the period 1975-1977 and later daily between Harmonstown and Tara St in the period 1981 - 1990. I cannot claim to have been very observant but John Mayner's observations on these operations are much  in line with my recollections. 

As noted these services fell into two categories,  IE inner and outer suburban services. Inner services operated between Howth and Bray with some continuing on to Greystones stopping at all stations and were operated using repurposed (and gutted) former AEC railcars (with engines removed) as push pull trains with C Class Locos.  (Loco normally at north end of trains but not always as was the case in the Gormanston crash).

Outer suburban services (some as far north as Dundalk and as far south as Wicklow) were operated using Laminate  coaches and some  Park Royals (i don't recollect seeing Cravens but probably so from the mid '80s ) and were loco hauled  These trains ran non stop between Connolly  and Howth Junction on the north side and non stop between Pearse and Dun Laoghaire and then non stop to Bray on the south side (I'm open to correction on the south side services.

There were no push pull services on the main line north of Howth Junction until  I believe 1989 with the introduction of Mark 3 coaches push/ pulled by 121 class locos on the outer suburban services (again with the loco at the north end of the trains).  

Class 121 locos never operated push pulls on inner suburban services other than between Bray and Greystones late '86 - '87.                                            

Three trains were involved in the crash in Gormanstown in 1974. The runaway train was an empty Pearse to Howth Junction Push Pull train, pushed by B202 which was diverted onto the main line at Howth Junction. At Gormanstown  the runaway hit the rear of an empty Connolly (departed from the Fairview Shed)  to Skerries AEC 2600  railcar train . This train had continued north of Skerries because the driver was warned of the runaway behind him.  The third train hauled by B219  travelling southbound Dundalk to Bray with over 75 passengers was stopped at Gormanstown.  One car of the AEC railcar set was derailed and struck the side of the southbound train killing two passengers.  The whole affair was a disgrace and in my opinion amounted to criminal negligence. http://www.raiu.ie/download/pdf/accident_gormanstown.pdf.  

 

 

 

   

[jhb171achill]

56 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

I travelled on the Dublin suburban  trains between Howth Junction and Blackrock daily in the period 1975-1977 and later daily between Harmonstown and Tara St in the period 1981 - 1990. I cannot claim to have been very observant but John Mayner's observations on these operations are much  in line with my recollections. 

As noted these services fell into two categories,  IE inner and outer suburban services. Inner services operated between Howth and Bray with some continuing on to Greystones stopping at all stations and were operated using repurposed (and gutted) former AEC railcars (with engines removed) as push pull trains with C Class Locos.  (Loco normally at north end of trains but not always as was the case in the Gormanston crash).

Outer suburban services (some as far north as Dundalk and as far south as Wicklow) were operated using Laminate  coaches and some  Park Royals (i don't recollect seeing Cravens but probably so from the mid '80s ) and were loco hauled  These trains ran non stop between Connolly  and Howth Junction on the north side and non stop between Pearse and Dun Laoghaire and then non stop to Bray on the south side (I'm open to correction on the south side services.

There were no push pull services on the main line north of Howth Junction until  I believe 1989 with the introduction of Mark 3 coaches push/ pulled by 121 class locos on the outer suburban services (again with the loco at the north end of the trains).  

Class 121 locos never operated push pulls on inner suburban services other than between Bray and Greystones late '86 - '87.                                            

Three trains were involved in the crash in Gormanstown in 1974. The runaway train was an empty Pearse to Howth Junction Push Pull train, pushed by B202 which was diverted onto the main line at Howth Junction. At Gormanstown  the runaway hit the rear of an empty Connolly (departed from the Fairview Shed)  to Skerries AEC 2600  railcar train . This train had continued north of Skerries because the driver was warned of the runaway behind him.  The third train hauled by B219  travelling southbound Dundalk to Bray with over 75 passengers was stopped at Gormanstown.  One car of the AEC railcar set was derailed and struck the side of the southbound train killing two passengers.  The whole affair was a disgrace and in my opinion amounted to criminal negligence. http://www.raiu.ie/download/pdf/accident_gormanstown.pdf.  

 

 

 

   

Very good and detailed account, which certainly corresponds with my own memories - and in every detail!

[Old Blarney]

Push-Pull to Maynooth.

I travelled on a Push-Pull train (Former AEC Railcars and a B201 Locomotive) from Connely to Maynooth to Connely.  My driver, that day, was to take-up duties on the Bray-Greystones-Bray shuttle the following week. I believe from memory; this was the commencement of the shuttle service between Bray and Greystones.

[leslie10646]

16 hours ago, Old Blarney said:

Push-Pull to Maynooth.

I travelled on a Push-Pull train (Former AEC Railcars and a B201 Locomotive) from Connely to Maynooth to Connely.  My driver, that day, was to take-up duties on the Bray-Greystones-Bray shuttle the following week. I believe from memory; this was the commencement of the shuttle service between Bray and Greystones.

My dear David, YOU'RE ALIVE!   Great news.

In your posts above, you don't mention the date?

 

[Old Blarney]

Good evening young Sir,

What a pleasure it is to read your reply to my comment.

From memory, now I don't know that reliance may be placed upon it (my memory) at my advanced years; I believe the date was shortly after the commencement of the DART Services: - Bray - Howth - Bray.

If you can find the date for the commencement of that Shuttle Service. and the withdrawal of all of the former Push-Pulls sets, excluding the Shuttle Service Stock. you will be close to the date I referred to.   From memory, "My driver, that day, was to take-up duties on the Bray-Greystones-Bray shuttle the following week. I believe from memory; this was the commencement of the shuttle service between Bray and Greystones." 

I may be incorrect?  If the Push-Pull stock continued in use used on serviced out-with the area served by the newly electrified DART Services, I'm up-the creek.  However, I remember the statement made to me by my driver that day when I travelled to Maynooth and back to Connelly. (See quotation above)

Give me a "bell" and let us have a natter. Far too long since we conversed.

Kindest regards,

White.

 

[leslie10646]

Dear White

I shall take pleasure in communicating with you after I've got this little event in Dublin behind me (if i make enough profit to cover the call).

I'll even let you know what my next wagon is - before this lot!

Yours faithfully

McAllister

[Mayner]

On 24/10/2022 at 11:34 AM, Old Blarney said:

Push-Pull to Maynooth.

I travelled on a Push-Pull train (Former AEC Railcars and a B201 Locomotive) from Connely to Maynooth to Connely.  My driver, that day, was to take-up duties on the Bray-Greystones-Bray shuttle the following week. I believe from memory; this was the commencement of the shuttle service between Bray and Greystones.

David 

That sure takes me back, my first journey on the DART was on a sunny July 84 Saturday!

The Push-Pulls and the majority of early 1950s coaching stock were withdrawn following the commissioning of the DART in July 1984. One Push Pull set was retained for use on Bray-Greystones shuttles, the set used on the shuttles were fitted with main-line seating but was otherwise became increasingly decrepit. The shuttle was worked by a (B) 201 Class until replaced by a 121 in 87 or 88 shortly before being replaced by an NIR 80 Class which operated a more frequent service.

A lot of the early 50s stock went to the Great Southern Railway Preservation Society at Mallow and Tralee and Westrail Tuam, a few may survive at Downpatrick.

The introduction of the Mk3 stock allowed Cravens, Park Park Royal and TL fitted Laminate stock to be cascaded from Main Line to outer suburban and branch line services, with Cravens appearing on Connolly-Drogheda trains in 84-5.

[Mike Beckett]

On 28/10/2022 at 3:34 AM, Mayner said:

A lot of the early 50s stock went to the Great Southern Railway Preservation Society at Mallow and Tralee and Westrail Tuam, a few may survive at Downpatrick.

 

Laminates 1918 and 2419 do indeed survive at Downpatrick. 

https://www.downrail.co.uk/rolling-stock/cie-1918/

https://www.downrail.co.uk/rolling-stock/cie-2419/

 

Not currently in passenger service. We would like 1918 to be refurbed soon as the brake compartment makes it a Very Useful Carriage.

Also there’s a C class, C231, from the same pre-DART memories.