The biggest basket-cases ever built on the railway

[Darrman]

I've stared at plenty of railway maps throughout the years, and there's plenty of lines that should never have closed, or at least would be viable today if the land was kept with the state. I'm sure every line ever constructed has someone look back fondly on it, but there's a few that beg the question of why they ever got the go-ahead.

Even just looking at the operational dates shows Bagenalstown to Palace East as a questionable proposition: it spent a good amount of the 1860s closed, the little section from Ballywilliam to the junction was run by the DSER for a time, and the whole exercise strikes me as a bit pointless. Borris is a small little place. Did the GSWR hope to reach Wexford at some point?

Moving over to the Midland, the Horseleap Branch to Clara never struck me as particularly useful. It's the result of a cut-down MGWR proposal to Tullamore to try to keep the GSWR out from Athlone, which failed and they ended up having to build it to Clara as part of an arbitration settlement. It serves nowhere of note that can't be accessed another way.

Armagh to Castleblayney has the dubious honour of being the shortest-lived railway in Ireland, thanks to partition. If the Kingscourt-Armagh plan became a reality, the line could have served as an alternative route to Belfast, though partition would still have proven an obstacle. But in the end, what remained was a short branch to Keady, which in turn soon succumbed.

I could bring up things like the baronial lines and most narrow-gauge lines too, but a lot of people here like them, so I'll leave well alone on those ones! I will say, in the interests of naming one Cork line as the Corkman that I am, the Donoughmore branch of the Cork and Muskerry strikes me as spectacularly pointless. It served a lot of nothing and a few crossroads. Am I missing something?

 

[jhb171achill]

Many of the ones you mention were built for perceived reasons of strategy, or promoted by local interests whose business acumen was somewhat lacking.

The post-1883 flurry of building the "Baronial" lines served useful purposes in many cases, but never forget that the very reason these grants were given was that the local "big" railway compnay was already well aware that they hadn't a hope of being financially viable on their own. Railway history is littered with these; Achill, Clifden, Kenmare, Glenties and so on; lines which never traded profitably throughout their lives.

We hear clamours today of such-and-such a line "should never have been closed". While occasionally correct, this is usually quite wrong. A population something like HALF what it is today, in the 1960s, and governments simply not havinbg the financial wherewithal they have now, made almost all of the closures which did happen, inevitable.

If there was any big "sin" involved in closures, it was not so much the actual closure, but the failure to protect the rights of way of the line closed. Had these been preserved, plus a waiver that a reopening, even if decades ahead, would not need new planning permission of any sort, we would be in a much better position to address transport policy issues today.

The two we hear most of - West Cork and the Derry Road - would be impossible to resurrect now on their original routes, and light years beyond prohibitely expensive to build circuitous new-build lines around places like the south of Cork city, Portadown, Omagh and Strabane. Had the rights of way remained, reopening would be easy - especially if the state had the powers to just bulldoze anything that farmers or others had put over the former line since, without reference to any local councillors!

[Louth]

6 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Many of the ones you mention were built for perceived reasons of strategy, or promoted by local interests whose business acumen was somewhat lacking.

The post-1883 flurry of building the "Baronial" lines served useful purposes in many cases, but never forget that the very reason these grants were given was that the local "big" railway compnay was already well aware that they hadn't a hope of being financially viable on their own. Railway history is littered with these; Achill, Clifden, Kenmare, Glenties and so on; lines which never traded profitably throughout their lives.

We hear clamours today of such-and-such a line "should never have been closed". While occasionally correct, this is usually quite wrong. A population something like HALF what it is today, in the 1960s, and governments simply not havinbg the financial wherewithal they have now, made almost all of the closures which did happen, inevitable.

If there was any big "sin" involved in closures, it was not so much the actual closure, but the failure to protect the rights of way of the line closed. Had these been preserved, plus a waiver that a reopening, even if decades ahead, would not need new planning permission of any sort, we would be in a much better position to address transport policy issues today.

The two we hear most of - West Cork and the Derry Road - would be impossible to resurrect now on their original routes, and light years beyond prohibitely expensive to build circuitous new-build lines around places like the south of Cork city, Portadown, Omagh and Strabane. Had the rights of way remained, reopening would be easy - especially if the state had the powers to just bulldoze anything that farmers or others had put over the former line since, without reference to any local councillors!

You have hit the nail on the head. Rights of way should have been maintained in many cases but this would have required long term planning, something that Ireland is not good at. Speaking of rights of way, has anyone noticed the new greenway being built on the Malahide viaduct. It takes up the space that was allocated for a third track across the estuary. And this is being done when the new Irish Rail timetable on the Northern line is under severe strain. This position will get even worse when hourly Enterprise services are introduced in a few weeks, not to mention DART+.

[Mayner]

10 hours ago, Darrman said:

I've stared at plenty of railway maps throughout the years, and there's plenty of lines that should never have closed, or at least would be viable today if the land was kept with the state. I'm sure every line ever constructed has someone look back fondly on it, but there's a few that beg the question of why they ever got the go-ahead.

Even just looking at the operational dates shows Bagenalstown to Palace East as a questionable proposition: it spent a good amount of the 1860s closed, the little section from Ballywilliam to the junction was run by the DSER for a time, and the whole exercise strikes me as a bit pointless. Borris is a small little place. Did the GSWR hope to reach Wexford at some point?

Moving over to the Midland, the Horseleap Branch to Clara never struck me as particularly useful. It's the result of a cut-down MGWR proposal to Tullamore to try to keep the GSWR out from Athlone, which failed and they ended up having to build it to Clara as part of an arbitration settlement. It serves nowhere of note that can't be accessed another way.

Armagh to Castleblayney has the dubious honour of being the shortest-lived railway in Ireland, thanks to partition. If the Kingscourt-Armagh plan became a reality, the line could have served as an alternative route to Belfast, though partition would still have proven an obstacle. But in the end, what remained was a short branch to Keady, which in turn soon succumbed.

I could bring up things like the baronial lines and most narrow-gauge lines too, but a lot of people here like them, so I'll leave well alone on those ones! I will say, in the interests of naming one Cork line as the Corkman that I am, the Donoughmore branch of the Cork and Muskerry strikes me as spectacularly pointless. It served a lot of nothing and a few crossroads. Am I missing something?

 

The majority of the Main-Lines/Trunk Routes were financed by private companies mainly with Irish raised capital with the primary intention of making a profit. Some early schemes like the Londerry and Enniskillen and were London owned struggled to raise capital in the City, which largely resulted in the majority of lines being financed by Irish Capital, 'incentive schemes" such as the Baronial Guarantees and Government Grants. Interestingly the highly Festiniog Railway in North Wales was orignially financed by 'Dublin Capital" enticed by a monopoly in slate traffic between the mines in Bleanau Festiniog and Portmadoc 14 miles away.

Both the Great Southern and Western and Midland Great Western demonstrated an aversion to building (financing) branch and secondary lines after completing their Main Lines or Trunk Routes.  The Great Southern and Western showed little interest in extending its Carlow Branch (the original main line) to Kilkenny or Wexford. The Irish South Eastern linked Carlow with Kilkenny and was eventually absorbed by the GSWR. The Bagnallstown and Wexford intended to build a main line linking the two towns using locally raised finance (Landowner and Merchant families)  and £50k from the GSWR, but ran out of money and went bankrupt shortly after opening the line to Ballywilliam. The Dublin Wicklow and Wexford acquired the powers to complete the line to Wexford, the physical junction between the Bagnallstown & Wexford and DWWR was in the Townland of Sparrowsland between Ballywilliam and Palace East. For a time Ballywilliam was a end on terminus for trains running from Bagnallstown and Macmine Junction, before Macmine-New Ross (and eventually Waterford) became the 'main line" and Macmine Junction became the terminus for trains from Bagnallstown. The Dublin Wicklow and Wexford shareholders would not have wanted the GSWR abstracting traffic and revenue from its coastal route.

The Irish companies tended to fiercely defend their territory from competition, Lord Lucan the promoter of the Mayo Line played the GSWR & MGWR off against each other to no doubt his personal and companies financial benefit when it came to negotiating a long term lease to the Midland for the operating and eventual sale of the line. The MGWR attempted to obtain powers to build a Streamstown-Tullamore line in an unsuccessful attempt to block the GSWR entering Athlone to link with the Mayo Line and instead was forced to build to Clara. In GSR days Streamstown-Clara-Clara-Banagher were operated as a single branch with passenger trains operating Mullingar-Banagher until passenger services were discontinued in the late 1940s, Clara was quite an important railcentre with rail served Jute and Flour mills with its own pilot (shunting loco) up to the mid 60s.

Likewise the GNR Carrickmacross branch  blocked the Kingscourt, Castleblaney and Armagh building a line linking Kingscourt and Castleblaney. The intention appears to have been to build a line linking Armagh with the NCC at Cookstown with the potential for the MGWR to tap into the Tyrone coalfield and operate excursions over the NCC to Portrush!

The Baronial Guarantees were a good investment for local investors (landowners and merchants) some guaranteeing a 5% return on capital in pertuity any shortfall funded 50/50 by the local ratepayers and the Treasury in Westminister.  If the railway continued to loose money for several years ownership passed to the council, though the shareholders continued to receive their dividends.

Baronial Guarantees became so controversial in County Leitrim that the ratepayers effectively blocked a Baronial Guarantee and Tresury Grant for extending the Cavan and Leitrim from Dromad to Roskery with a quay on the Shannon. 

Baronial Guarantees ceased in the Irish Free State under the 1924 Railway Act, the Government compensating the GSR for loss making services for 10 years after which no public subsidy would be paid. Its interesting the GSR closed the Muskerry including the Baronial Guaranted "Donoughmore Extension" in 1934 10 years after the passing of the Act.

The case of the Clogher Valley Railway was an interesting one in 1928 the Government of Northern Ireland appointed a "Comittee of Management" with appointees of Tyrome and Fermanagh County Councils and two Government appointees (both practical railway men) to run the line, the Clogher Valley shareholders continuing to receive their dividend.  The shareholders may have continued to receive their dividend until the winding up of the company was  completed in April 1944 over three years after the last train ran on 1st Jan 1942. 

1939 Select Committe on Rail and Road Transport in 1939 concluded that the continued existance of the railway was due to the extremely complicated legal and financial problems the abandonment would present chiefly the 5% guarantee on capital given by the two councils to the shareholders.

Interestingly some of the shareholdings were held by the families of prominent members of the Northern Ireland's political establishment who were not exactly known to be pro-rail but had a soft spot for the Clogher Valley.

While I am passionate about branch lines as a modeller and enthusiast, I believe its better to start with a 'clean sheet" in assessing mid-21st Century needs than re-opening railways that ceased to fulfil a useful function over 60 years ago, population centres, industries, trade routes and ways of doing business has changed in the 190 years since Ireland's 1st railway opened. The majority of the main lines were built to transport the mails from regional cities and towns to cross channel ports and livestock from the hinterland to the ports for export a function that largely ceased almost 60 years ago as personal travel patterns and mode ceased and Ireland diversified its economic base with agriculture playing a smaller role. During the past 20 years Ireland developed a modern roading network to suit the countries needs from scratch a similar approach needs to be considered for rail, but the question also needs to be asked is mass transportation such as heavy rail relevant to Irelands future needs.

 

[jhb171achill]

39 minutes ago, Mayner said:

The majority of the Main-Lines/Trunk Routes were financed by private companies mainly with Irish raised capital with the primary intention of making a profit. Some early schemes like the Londerry and Enniskillen and were London owned struggled to raise capital in the City, which largely resulted in the majority of lines being financed by Irish Capital, 'incentive schemes" such as the Baronial Guarantees and Government Grants. Interestingly the highly Festiniog Railway in North Wales was orignially financed by 'Dublin Capital" enticed by a monopoly in slate traffic between the mines in Bleanau Festiniog and Portmadoc 14 miles away.

Both the Great Southern and Western and Midland Great Western demonstrated an aversion to building (financing) branch and secondary lines after completing their Main Lines or Trunk Routes.  The Great Southern and Western showed little interest in extending its Carlow Branch (the original main line) to Kilkenny or Wexford. The Irish South Eastern linked Carlow with Kilkenny and was eventually absorbed by the GSWR. The Bagnallstown and Wexford intended to build a main line linking the two towns using locally raised finance (Landowner and Merchant families)  and £50k from the GSWR, but ran out of money and went bankrupt shortly after opening the line to Ballywilliam. The Dublin Wicklow and Wexford acquired the powers to complete the line to Wexford, the physical junction between the Bagnallstown & Wexford and DWWR was in the Townland of Sparrowsland between Ballywilliam and Palace East. For a time Ballywilliam was a end on terminus for trains running from Bagnallstown and Macmine Junction, before Macmine-New Ross (and eventually Waterford) became the 'main line" and Macmine Junction became the terminus for trains from Bagnallstown. The Dublin Wicklow and Wexford shareholders would not have wanted the GSWR abstracting traffic and revenue from its coastal route.

The Irish companies tended to fiercely defend their territory from competition, Lord Lucan the promoter of the Mayo Line played the GSWR & MGWR off against each other to no doubt his personal and companies financial benefit when it came to negotiating a long term lease to the Midland for the operating and eventual sale of the line. The MGWR attempted to obtain powers to build a Streamstown-Tullamore line in an unsuccessful attempt to block the GSWR entering Athlone to link with the Mayo Line and instead was forced to build to Clara. In GSR days Streamstown-Clara-Clara-Banagher were operated as a single branch with passenger trains operating Mullingar-Banagher until passenger services were discontinued in the late 1940s, Clara was quite an important railcentre with rail served Jute and Flour mills with its own pilot (shunting loco) up to the mid 60s.

Likewise the GNR Carrickmacross branch  blocked the Kingscourt, Castleblaney and Armagh building a line linking Kingscourt and Castleblaney. The intention appears to have been to build a line linking Armagh with the NCC at Cookstown with the potential for the MGWR to tap into the Tyrone coalfield and operate excursions over the NCC to Portrush!

The Baronial Guarantees were a good investment for local investors (landowners and merchants) some guaranteeing a 5% return on capital in pertuity any shortfall funded 50/50 by the local ratepayers and the Treasury in Westminister.  If the railway continued to loose money for several years ownership passed to the council, though the shareholders continued to receive their dividends.

Baronial Guarantees became so controversial in County Leitrim that the ratepayers effectively blocked a Baronial Guarantee and Tresury Grant for extending the Cavan and Leitrim from Dromad to Roskery with a quay on the Shannon. 

Baronial Guarantees ceased in the Irish Free State under the 1924 Railway Act, the Government compensating the GSR for loss making services for 10 years after which no public subsidy would be paid. Its interesting the GSR closed the Muskerry including the Baronial Guaranted "Donoughmore Extension" in 1934 10 years after the passing of the Act.

The case of the Clogher Valley Railway was an interesting one in 1928 the Government of Northern Ireland appointed a "Comittee of Management" with appointees of Tyrome and Fermanagh County Councils and two Government appointees (both practical railway men) to run the line, the Clogher Valley shareholders continuing to receive their dividend.  The shareholders may have continued to receive their dividend until the winding up of the company was  completed in April 1944 over three years after the last train ran on 1st Jan 1942. 

1939 Select Committe on Rail and Road Transport in 1939 concluded that the continued existance of the railway was due to the extremely complicated legal and financial problems the abandonment would present chiefly the 5% guarantee on capital given by the two councils to the shareholders.

Interestingly some of the shareholdings were held by the families of prominent members of the Northern Ireland's political establishment who were not exactly known to be pro-rail but had a soft spot for the Clogher Valley.

While I am passionate about branch lines as a modeller and enthusiast, I believe its better to start with a 'clean sheet" in assessing mid-21st Century needs than re-opening railways that ceased to fulfil a useful function over 60 years ago, population centres, industries, trade routes and ways of doing business has changed in the 190 years since Ireland's 1st railway opened. The majority of the main lines were built to transport the mails from regional cities and towns to cross channel ports and livestock from the hinterland to the ports for export a function that largely ceased almost 60 years ago as personal travel patterns and mode ceased and Ireland diversified its economic base with agriculture playing a smaller role. During the past 20 years Ireland developed a modern roading network to suit the countries needs from scratch a similar approach needs to be considered for rail, but the question also needs to be asked is mass transportation such as heavy rail relevant to Irelands future needs.

 

1000%, couldn’t agree more.

And in the light of the above, every detail of which is correct, compare the utter nonsense portrayed in the All Ireland rail review.

They either didn’t do any serious research at all, or else produced a report telling what they were told the results were to be, in order to enable our politicians and to just kick the can down another road.

Reopen Portadown - Cavan - Inny Junction? SERIOUSLY?

Ooooh boy.

Edited September 12 by jhb171achill

[Galteemore]

Key shareholders in the BCDR were the Andrews family, who owned a mill in Comber. Thomas Andrews is the most famous scion (of Titanic fame) but the family made a huge impact in the political and industrial life of Co Down and the North in general. In the mid 50s, JM Andrews, a former PM of NI and BCDR director, was still, as a Stormont MP, advocating that the Govt reopen the Ex BCDR main line before it was lifted, pointing out its advantages over road expansion. 

Edited September 12 by Galteemore

[Mayner]

9 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

1000%, couldn’t agree more.

And in the light of the above, every detail of which is correct, compare the utter nonsense portrayed in the All Ireland rail review.

They either didn’t do any serious research at all, or else produced a report telling what they were told the results were to be, in order to enable our politicians and to just kick the can down another road.

Reopen Portadown - Cavan - Inny Junction? SERIOUSLY?

Ooooh boy.

Portadown-Cavan-Navan-Dublin would make more sense is would be more direct linking up large (by Irish standards) towns, the Portadown-Inny Junction was alignment was abandoned and sold over 60 years ago. As a modeller I imagined Virginia County Cavan as an important intermediate station on a direct joint GN/MGWR line from Kells to Cavan, Enniskillen and the North West. would have been an excuse to run my GN and CIE (ex-Midland) trains on the one line.

The Baronial Lines remind me of a 19th Century version of todays Public-Private partnerships used in some countries to provide essential infrastructure such as roads, water and sewrage systems. Financed by private capital (todays equivalent of the Landed Gentry and Merchant Families) with Local and Central Government taking on the financial risk if project goes over budget and does not achieve the expected rate of return. 

Edited September 12 by Mayner

[jhb171achill]

41 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Portadown-Cavan-Navan-Dublin would make more sense is would be more direct linking up large (by Irish standards) towns, the Portadown-Inny Junction was alignment was abandoned and sold over 60 years ago. As a modeller I imagined Virginia County Cavan as an important intermediate station on a direct joint GN/MGWR line from Kells to Cavan, Enniskillen and the North West. would have been an excuse to run my GN and CIE (ex-Midland) trains on the one line.

The Baronial Lines remind me of a 19th Century version of todays Public-Private partnerships used in some countries to provide essential infrastructure such as roads, water and sewrage systems. Financed by private capital (todays equivalent of the Landed Gentry and Merchant Families) with Local and Central Government taking on the financial risk if project goes over budget and does not achieve the expected rate of return. 

Indeed - a new-build entirely. Perhaps better, a direct line from Dublin to Navan, Cavan, Enniskillen, Letterkenny (or near it) and Derry..... better than that, if the first section of it was underground, to alleviate pressure on Connolly & Heuston, and it served the airport too!

We can but dream.

For a VERY long time.

 

[skinner75]

17 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Indeed - a new-build entirely. Perhaps better, a direct line from Dublin to Navan, Cavan, Enniskillen, Letterkenny (or near it) and Derry..... better than that, if the first section of it was underground, to alleviate pressure on Connolly & Heuston, and it served the airport too!

We can but dream.

For a VERY long time.

 

Might as well make it a high speed line too 

[Branchline121]

On 12/9/2024 at 11:28 PM, jhb171achill said:

Indeed - a new-build entirely. Perhaps better, a direct line from Dublin to Navan, Cavan, Enniskillen, Letterkenny (or near it) and Derry..... better than that, if the first section of it was underground, to alleviate pressure on Connolly & Heuston, and it served the airport too!

We can but dream.

For a VERY long time.

 

Interestingly the review states it did study a Navan—Derry railway line but did not consider there to be enough demand.

[Horsetan]

On 12/9/2024 at 11:28 PM, jhb171achill said:

....We can but dream.

For a VERY long time.

Forever.