LNWR-MGWR Merger?

[GSR 800]

Reading through Ernie Shepherd's history of the MGWR, I noticed he refers to possible talks in the early 20s that the LNWR was considering purchasing the MGWR. There are several different possibilities mentioned, including a merger of the MGWR and the GNR.

This is certainly an interesting 'what if' scenario. The LNWR would soon become part of the LMS, meaning the latter would have a considerable stake in Ireland with both the NCC and MGWR. Anyone know any more about these talks? 

One can only begin to wonder the possible impact on locomotive and rolling stock policy, nevermind trains themselves...

[jhb171achill]

Interesting concept.

Had the NCC and MGWR been physwically connected, you'd have had one owned by the (English) Midland Railway, and the other by the LNWR, up to 1923, but they would have had become one system after that. This, in turn, would have limited the GSR to little more than the GSR and the narrow gauge lines, and possibly resulted in the subsuming of the CDR into the LMS. But the GNR was in the middle between the, and was itself at one stage contemplating amalgamating with the DSER.

Given all that, any supposition as to what might have happened has far too many variables to be anything other than pure fantasy, but certainly an interesting one.

The Fishguard company became in operational terms part of the GSR, so a British owned Irish company wholly within the Irish Free State might also have been operated like that.

As an aside, it's equally interesting to wonder whyat way our railways would have developed had Ireland never been divided into two separate political jurisdictions....

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

As an aside, it's equally interesting to wonder whyat way our railways would have developed had Ireland never been divided into two separate political jurisdictions....

In my mind, you might have had a GSR competing with a GNR combined with the DSER. Eventually theyd still end up combining into a CIE of sorts. Though the railway map would be impossible to predict, considering the economic position, structure, policy ect. of such a country would be much different. One thing is for sure, I’d imagine there would be a railway line running up the North West 
 

Imagine gsr grey donegal tanks….GNR 461 ect.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Westcorkrailway said:

In my mind, you might have had a GSR competing with a GNR combined with the DSER. Eventually theyd still end up combining into a CIE of sorts. Though the railway map would be impossible to predict, considering the economic position, structure, policy ect. of such a country would be much different. One thing is for sure, I’d imagine there would be a railway line running up the North West 
 

Imagine gsr grey donegal tanks….GNR 461 ect.

The big issue, of course, would have been what would have happened when the British companies were nationalised. It might have brought nationalisation here (1950) ahead by two years.

[Mayner]

To me the big question is what would the LNWR have gained by absorbing the MGWR as a high proportion of cross-channel passenger and goods traffic from the Midland was already routed by the LNWR's North Wall-Holyhead sea route.

The LNWRs involvement in Irish railway companies were hardly the most successful, the DNGR struggled to make a profit and passenger sailings on the Greenore-Holyhead route ceased in 1926, the GNR taking over maintenance and operation of the DNGR in 1933 the British Transport Comission closing the line in 1951.

The LNWR became a major supporter of the DSER contributing a load of £100k to complete the New Ross-Waterford extension and paid a "virtual' annual subsidy of £20k to the DSER. The DSER plagued by tramway competition on its suburban services to Dunlaoire and Dalkey and coastal erosion the DSER paid a 1% dividend on its ordinary shares in the years before the Amalgamation.

Its likely that the Midland would have been in a strong position in any negotions with the LNWR, Sir Walter Nugent the Midland Chairman became the 1st GSR Chair and Midland Officers took charge of GSR financial management, with a strong focus on cost reduction including singling double track sections of ex-MGWR lines.

The other interesting one is the Baronially Guaranteed narrow and broad gauge line, where effectively the GSR was forced to swallow a 'poison pill" by absorbing the lines with the Free State continuing the guarantee ( guaranteed return on capital and making up of operating losses) for a period of 10 years. The GSR absorbing the lines would have been popular with ratepayers in the affected areas, immediately relieving them of the burden of supporting a railway that 'could not pay its way", but transferred the burden to an already struggling GSR after 10 years. The GSR lost no time in closing marginal branch lines after the 10 year guarantee period ended.

A better option might have been to continue the status quo with Baronial Guaranteed lines continuing under local management and allowing the local community (ratepayers) decide whether to close the line or continue paying the guarantee, a number of lines including the Dublin & Blessington (outside GSR), Tralee & Dingle and Schull and Skibereen were operated by a Management Committee appointed by the Local Council. In Northern Ireland local control of the Clogher Valley was particularly effective under the leadership of Henry Forbes (of CDR fame) train services were improved and operating costs introduced as a result of the introduction of a diesel railcar & 'The Unit".   The Stormont Government agreed to 'buy out' the shareholders and fund road improvements when the railway ceased to fulfill a useful function.

[GSR 800]

4 hours ago, Mayner said:

To me the big question is what would the LNWR have gained by absorbing the MGWR as a high proportion of cross-channel passenger and goods traffic from the Midland was already routed by the LNWR's North Wall-Holyhead sea route.

The LNWRs involvement in Irish railway companies were hardly the most successful, the DNGR struggled to make a profit and passenger sailings on the Greenore-Holyhead route ceased in 1926, the GNR taking over maintenance and operation of the DNGR in 1933 the British Transport Comission closing the line in 1951.

The LNWR became a major supporter of the DSER contributing a load of £100k to complete the New Ross-Waterford extension and paid a "virtual' annual subsidy of £20k to the DSER. The DSER plagued by tramway competition on its suburban services to Dunlaoire and Dalkey and coastal erosion the DSER paid a 1% dividend on its ordinary shares in the years before the Amalgamation.

Its likely that the Midland would have been in a strong position in any negotions with the LNWR, Sir Walter Nugent the Midland Chairman became the 1st GSR Chair and Midland Officers took charge of GSR financial management, with a strong focus on cost reduction including singling double track sections of ex-MGWR lines.

The other interesting one is the Baronially Guaranteed narrow and broad gauge line, where effectively the GSR was forced to swallow a 'poison pill" by absorbing the lines with the Free State continuing the guarantee ( guaranteed return on capital and making up of operating losses) for a period of 10 years. The GSR absorbing the lines would have been popular with ratepayers in the affected areas, immediately relieving them of the burden of supporting a railway that 'could not pay its way", but transferred the burden to an already struggling GSR after 10 years. The GSR lost no time in closing marginal branch lines after the 10 year guarantee period ended.

A better option might have been to continue the status quo with Baronial Guaranteed lines continuing under local management and allowing the local community (ratepayers) decide whether to close the line or continue paying the guarantee, a number of lines including the Dublin & Blessington (outside GSR), Tralee & Dingle and Schull and Skibereen were operated by a Management Committee appointed by the Local Council. In Northern Ireland local control of the Clogher Valley was particularly effective under the leadership of Henry Forbes (of CDR fame) train services were improved and operating costs introduced as a result of the introduction of a diesel railcar & 'The Unit".   The Stormont Government agreed to 'buy out' the shareholders and fund road improvements when the railway ceased to fulfill a useful function.

Interestingly it seems negotiations for a larger merger with the LNWR, MGWR and GNR (along with, apparently, the DSER) was at least in part scuttled by objections of the DSER over the loans it had been given by the LNWR that you've mentioned. Merging, according to Shepherd, would have meant repayment of this loan which the DSER was unwilling to do!

When I am home I will take a photo of the paragraph I'm referring to for further clarification.

The point regarding the baronial lines is an interesting one indeed, gives a lot of space for various alternate history scenarios. One wonders whether the likes of the Achill or Clifden lines could have survived longer in such a scenario. If so, I'd imagine passenger services would end up powered by 'Railcar B' clones.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, GSR 800 said:

Interestingly it seems negotiations for a larger merger with the LNWR, MGWR and GNR (along with, apparently, the DSER) was at least in part scuttled by objections of the DSER over the loans it had been given by the LNWR that you've mentioned. Merging, according to Shepherd, would have meant repayment of this loan which the DSER was unwilling to do!

When I am home I will take a photo of the paragraph I'm referring to for further clarification.

The point regarding the baronial lines is an interesting one indeed, gives a lot of space for various alternate history scenarios. One wonders whether the likes of the Achill or Clifden lines could have survived longer in such a scenario. If so, I'd imagine passenger services would end up powered by 'Railcar B' clones.

Now you’re making me drool.

SLNCR “B” roaring and labouring its way round the mountainside above Bellacragher Bay, or on the long climb from the Owengarve river bridge up to Mulrany!

[Mayner]

The GWR, Midland and GSWR would have been concerned/alarmed by a LNWR being involved in a merger of the MGWR & GNR and possibly a Government (Westminster) and local interests (particularly Sligo) at the mergers impact on competition in a laissez-faire era when the railways had an effective monopoly on surface transportation before the onset of large scale competition by motor vehicle.

The Free State took a very centralised approach to government including reducing the power of Local Government to make decisions which was also reflected in the Amalgamation of the railways into the GSR and the establishment of ESB, Sugar Company & BNM, where more localised decision making would have been more effective. In the UK Councils/Cities retained responsibility for their Tram and Bus networks.

Interestingly while the GSR held its board meetings at Kingsbridge, the GNR alternated Board meetings between Amien St Dublin and Gt Victoria St Belfast which may have reflected a more devolved level of decision making that the GSR

While apart from the Drumm Battery Train (driven by political pressure) and limited use of Steam Railcars the GSR was conservative in its approach to passenger rail operation, the GNR introduced diesel railcars and railbuses to improve services and reduce operating costs on marginal lines, the CDJR and SLNCR largely largely replaced steam hauled passenger services with railcars/railbusses. While apart from Ballybay-Carrickmacross the majority of GN lines in the Republic retained their (relatively frequent by Irish stds) passenger services until the late 50s the majority of branch lines in the South lost their passenger services between 1930 and the 47 fuel crisis. The branch lines lines that remained ran 1-2 passenger/mixed trains daily until closed in the late 50s-mid 70s.

I think one of the possible drivers behind the Clifden, Achill and Killala closures was that the construction of the lines was largely funded by Government grant and their closure did not involve a significant write off of capital potentially affecting GSRs borrowing powers at a time the railway was building new 'modern' coaches and had began design work on the 800s. 

The closure of the three lines in the West is in startling contrast to the survival of the Kenmare and Valencia lines though CIE failed to exploit the tourist potential of either line with reasonable rolling stock or a reasonable passenger service. An diesel powered version of the Drumm Battery train would have made an excellent 'Tourist Train'/observation car for the Kerry or West of Ireland branches, interestingly CIEs 1st diesel programme included railcar set specifically for "Tourist" traffic.

Probably better to go totally freelance than model a particular prototype in my teens I drempt up totally freelance railway systems both in Ireland and England complete with their own history and designs of locos and stock

[Mayner]

30 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Now you’re making me drool.

SLNCR “B” roaring and labouring its way round the mountainside above Bellacragher Bay, or on the long climb from the Owengarve river bridge up to Mulrany!

Think GSR 800 may have been thinking of one of the early GNR railcars

A diesel version of Cyril Frys streamlined  model of Drumm Train C would have looked impressive.

The as built styling of Trains C & D is remarkably similar to the LMS articulated railcar also introduced 1939

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_railcars#/media/File:LMS_Diesel_Multiple_Unit_80000–80002.jpg

Interestingtly mechanically the LMS articulated railcar appears to have been a development of NCC railcars 2-4, GSR tended to buy Leyland trucks and buses so potentially access to the technology if there was a will.

Everything is interrelated as they say, when I first arrived in New Zealand a Maori colleague asked what part of Ireland I was from and replied that his daughter worked in the IFC in Dublin when I told him.

Edited 5 hours ago by Mayner