CIE loco 'allocations' to depots

[Mol_PMB]

My understanding is that in steam days in Ireland, specific locos were allocated to sheds, often for many years, with those sheds being responsible for maintenance and running repairs. Only if a major overhaul or heavy repair was needed would the loco go back to Inchicore. The same system was used in the UK too.

D Renehan's articles on the various early diesel loco classes also mention particular locos being allocated to routes or sheds. For example, Cork's C-class allocation around 1960 included C203, C206, C207, C210, C214, C218, C225, C227 and C232.

The G601's each seem to have been allocated to particular branches too - 601 at Kanturk-Newmarket, 602 to the branches around Tralee, and 603 at Clara-Banagher.

For many years E428 was based at Limerick and E429 at Cork.

 

My question is about how long this system lasted into the diesel era? 

Did the improved reliability and standardisation of the GMs lead the change to a centralised 'common-user' approach?

 

Modern allocations tend to be a whole fleet together at a depot, with the operating diagrams arranged so that they return to base each week or so for exams and maintenance.

 

[jhb171achill]

8 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

My understanding is that in steam days in Ireland, specific locos were allocated to sheds, often for many years, with those sheds being responsible for maintenance and running repairs. Only if a major overhaul or heavy repair was needed would the loco go back to Inchicore. The same system was used in the UK too.

D Renehan's articles on the various early diesel loco classes also mention particular locos being allocated to routes or sheds. For example, Cork's C-class allocation around 1960 included C203, C206, C207, C210, C214, C218, C225, C227 and C232.

The G601's each seem to have been allocated to particular branches too - 601 at Kanturk-Newmarket, 602 to the branches around Tralee, and 603 at Clara-Banagher.

For many years E428 was based at Limerick and E429 at Cork.

 

My question is about how long this system lasted into the diesel era? 

Did the improved reliability and standardisation of the GMs lead the change to a centralised 'common-user' approach?

 

Modern allocations tend to be a whole fleet together at a depot, with the operating diagrams arranged so that they return to base each week or so for exams and maintenance.

 

Yes, as you suspect, the diesel era put paid to all of that. As you say, certain locos were in steam days very much associated with certain lines, although classes like J15s could end up all over the place. In diesel days, Inchicore was Planet Central. Even the G611's got about - all but one of the seven were to be found in Loughrea from time to time (the missing one, G614, probably DID go there too, but I haven't seen a pic of it). E's were probably more static, though, as all here will know, while they're primarily associated with dublin, they did turn up at other places, sometimes (like Fenit, Shelton Abbey at al) not where you'd expect to have found them. (I personally saw them in Cork and Limerick - the latter, I think, E425 in the mid-70s).

Edited Thursday at 21:29 by jhb171achill

[Westcorkrailway]

19 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

. For example, Cork's C-class allocation around 1960 included C203, C206, C207, C210, C214, C218, C225, C227 and C232.

 

 

That being said, litterally every single C class ended up on the West Cork system within 2 years. It’s also suspected that a fair amount of the AEC sets did as well. So even by this stage it was a very much chop, change and rotate system 

[Mayner]

47 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

That being said, litterally every single C class ended up on the West Cork system within 2 years. It’s also suspected that a fair amount of the AEC sets did as well. So even by this stage it was a very much chop, change and rotate system 

I remember reading somewhere that the West Cork railcar set was serviced weekly (at Cork) and a steam working substituted on the day (a GSWR 2-4-2T?) Its possible that railcar maintenance was centralised  at Inchacore? as sufficient railcars became available to work all regular diagrams, in a similar manner to the way the Cobh 2600 set was swapped around on Sundays using a return Cork main line working.

There was some odd C Class diagramming for maintenance rotation purposes on the West Cork system, the one of the Up goods trains was apparently scheduled to swap locos at Clonakilty Junction with the loco of the Up Branch train. The loco off the Up goods presumably working the Branch for several days while the Branch loco continued to Cork for service/maintenance. Presumably swapping the loco of the goods with the Branch train avoided a light engine movement from Cork to Clonakilty Jnt

With the C Class reputation of poor reliability its possible that a lot of swapping about was required to keep sufficient locos in operation to operate the two daily goods trains & the Baltimore and Clonakilty mixed.

Dan Renehan in his article on the Metrovick diesels in the IRRS Journal wrote about the amount of 'swapping' around that was necessary to operate the schedule using the A Class diesels, main line passenger and goods workings were diagrammed to the locos in the best mechanical condition and lubricating oil regularly monitored to assess condition and locos rotated to less ardous passenger and finally goods workings as the condition of the lubricant deteriorated.  He wrote of fitters travelling in the engine compartment of A Class on Knock Specials attending to leaks and faults as they developed while the train was running. There was a story of Radio Technicians boarding a loco in white overalls which quickly turned grey while trialling radio telephones on the A Class during the 60

[Mol_PMB]

All good stuff - many thanks!

I think what this is telling me that for main-line diesel models at least, any number will do and I don't need to restrict myself to ones known to have worked in a particular area. 

Having said that, would we on the forum have any influence over which liveries and numbers are produced when the IRM C class breaks cover? 

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

All good stuff - many thanks!

I think what this is telling me that for main-line diesel models at least, any number will do and I don't need to restrict myself to ones known to have worked in a particular area. 

Having said that, would we on the forum have any influence over which liveries and numbers are produced when the IRM C class breaks cover? 

I wish we did!!!! lol but IRM are not going to spoil a model just so people can get running numbers they like. C201 in plain silver is a dead on but other then That it’s free real estate. I’d l love C231 in lined green, C212 in unlined green and C202 in silver, but highly unlikely that will come to pass and I’ll have to get onto a decal remover! 
 

liveries 

Silver 

Green 

Lined Green

Dark lined green (?)

Black 

Black Yellow panel 

black yellow panel with yellow buffer 

Black and Tan low band 

Black and Tan high band 

supertrain 

NIR 

thinking about it. C226 and C231 would probobly be in there liveries, maybe not as preserved but that would make sense 

[Westcorkrailway]

3 hours ago, Mayner said:

I remember reading somewhere that the West Cork railcar set was serviced weekly (at Cork) and a steam working substituted on the day (a GSWR 2-4-2T?) Its possible that railcar maintenance was centralised  at Inchacore? as sufficient railcars became available to work all regular diagrams, in a similar manner to the way the Cobh 2600 set was swapped around on Sundays using a return Cork main line working.

This would have been the case in the early 1950s but regular steam passenger traffic had finished by 1955/6 so a different arrangement had to have been made from then on 

[Mol_PMB]

There are a few more variants not in your list, particularly variants of black and black'n'tan.

I have looked into the green ones in more detail and I believe there were some in light green with line, possibly 211, 218, 220, maybe others. Whereas 231 and 234 (which were painted green from new, and at the same time as A46) were mid green with line. Good colour pictures with other green vehicles to compare to are needed to make a good judgement. I'm calling C231 in this image 'mid green':

I know it's heresy but I think there were 3 shades of CIE green... But in my livery matrix I'm presently just showing whether green locos have the line or not.

This is the current status of my C class livery matrix:

There are some locos that would be particularly useful representatives of some liveries. Focusing on Crossley-engined examples for now:

• C231 or C234 for the mid green with line
• C232 carried unlined light green for much longer than most.
• A good example for silver livery would be one that never got painted green, and was still carrying silver in 1962/3, such as C202, C210, C214, C224
• C209, C221 and C229 carried the black and deep tan (i.e. 'high band' in your terminology) livery for a long period
• C223 and C226 had the yellow panels for longer than most
• There are 5 variants of the black livery; when doing the A class IRM missed the most common one (with roundel on the side, but without yellow panel) so hopefully we'll have at least one C in that scheme which looked very smart when clean. C212, C215 or C220 might be good examples as they carried it for a long time.

 

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

I know it's heresy but I think there were 3 shades of CIE green... But in my livery matrix I'm presently just showing whether green locos have the line or not.

 

I think you owe JHB a pint when you get to Galway……

[Mol_PMB]

19 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

I think you owe JHB a pint when you get to Galway……

Park Royals appeared in two distinct shades of green, There's a super colour photo dated 1961 in the book 'Keith Pirt Colour Portfolio' page 4 showing Park Royals in both shades in the same rake. The lighter green ones have black ends, and are cleaner so probably newly repainted.

I'm pretty sure the AEC railcars appeared in the same two shades.

And these two coaches are surely showing the contrast between the same two shades:

The Park Royals in the 1959 image with C231 are the darker shade, and have green ends. I could be persuaded that C231 is the same colour as the Park Royals, just a bit cleaner (except for the black bits!)

I don't think C231 is the lighter green seen on the railcars above, and on these photos of C class without lines

 

 

The colour that to me always looks darker than all of the above, is the shade used on carriages in the 1940s with the two thick bands of eau-de-nil. Also applied to shunters 1000-1004. But perhaps it wasn't really darker. There aren't many colour photos of the 1940s livery and many of them may show vehicles after years in traffic that have darkened due to dirt, revarnishing etc. Perhaps also the bigger expanse of eau-de-nil makes it look darker?

Is the official view that the green in this 1940s livery is the same as the darker shade applied to the AECs and Park Royals?

Maybe after enough pints of stout all the shades of green will look the same?

 

 

[GSR 800]

The green question is a difficult one indeed.

The AEC railcars received the dark green livery initially iirc before being repainted with the rest of the fleet in the mid-50s into the lighter shade.

One needs look no further than various IRRS photos of the 800s to see how varied green can look. Maedbh has been in the same livery since the inception of CIE, however, the various photos of her after preservation have her green looking darker and lighter depending on the specific photo in question.

For a long time I was under the impression Macha had received the light green treatment with Tailte, but apparently this is not the case.

Initially I was sure the photo evidence of her in the early 60s was proof, but then I came across this..

42, nice as she is, is not what I'm looking at. The 400 behind her, presumably laid up as a sound barrier for Inchicore, and painted in the dark green, has been thoroughly sun bleached indeed!

 

[Mayner]

Colour shades vary over time depending on a lot of variables.  The 'Tan" on the 101 Class Sulzers laid up on the Inchacore sound barrier during the late 70s varied in shade from golden brown to pink although they were all likely to have been re-painted around the same time., Ironically the B101s still in Black and Tan appeared to be the least faded although possibly the 1st withdrawn.

I guess it really depends on what suits your personal tastes attempting to capture the variety of shades that existed on the prototype or a more pragmatic uniform approach most of my 'green' stock is painted in an approximation of the late 50s light green scheme custom mixed at a local auto paint supplier. I forget if the paint was originally matched with a photo or a 90s repaint of a Hornby Stanier. These days I retain a sample of each custom colour on a piece of MDF or Plasticard, though the shade tends to vary between others although colour 'matched' with the original sample, not drastically though.

[Mol_PMB]

Indeed!

This is a picture I keep coming back to when looking at greens. It’s on the cusp between genuinely different paint colours, and the same paint but the difference between newly outshopped versus a few years of weathering. 

Maybe I should stick with silver!

 

On the subject of the faded tan on the B101s it’s worth remembering that there were 3 different liveries on the withdrawn locos - one still had the early 1960s black and deep tan (without the white stripe at the cantrail), and had been withdrawn almost a decade earlier than the rest. Several had the black and shallow tan of the late 1960s. Some of the black and tan ones were looking almost greenish with weathering by the time they were cut up. 
Some of the other B101s received supertrain livery after being stopped! Only a few carried it in service. 

[jhb171achill]

The carriages above - yes, a perfect illustration of weathering. the forst one is in the 1955 green, and the other three are in the older 1945-55 green, but in the "local" Cork version of simpler or absent loining.