'Big Boy' goods vans - GSWR / GSR / CIE

[Mol_PMB]

It appears that the GSWR introduced some unusually large goods vans, which survived into the 1960s and some into the 1970s. I've seen one reference where these are referred to as 'Big Boy' vans which seems appropriate even if they aren't Union Pacific Mallet locos - they are bigger than the rolling stock around them.

I've gathered some photos but would welcome more information especially a drawing or a list of numbers.

 

To illustrate the type of van I'm talking about, here's one pictured later in its life, image posted by Ernie on Flickr:

They were significantly taller than the H vans and most other vans. I think they were also a bit longer, but this was exaggerated by the relatively short wheelbase and small W-irons and journals which gave them an 'elephant-on-a-skateboard' look!

 

This HMRS photo of van 1150 dated 1907 shows an early variant with wooden body ribs; most of them had metal structural members. As far as I can tell they all had metal underframes.

https://hmrs.org.uk/-abn530--10t-goods-van-gswr-1150--op--1907-r3l--open-spoke-wheels-photo-no--s-801.html

This IRRS photo dated 1969 shows number 924, presumably in the same number series as 1150 above. However, 924 is the more common type with metal body framing and planked sides and ends.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511622719

 

The other photos I've found all seem to be in the 15000 series. Most have horizontally planked sides and ends, with vertically planked doors.

Here's 15236 in 1975:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511125251

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570652283

15175 towering over an older 'convertible' van in 1957:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252992446

15279 in 1963:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257012444

15506 and 15515 in 1968:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570455881

A partial view from Ernie:

 

(edit: removed photo of 15458 posted in error - not this type)

 

The first photo I posted showed a van re-clad with ply, but retaining planked doors. There's a similar one here, partly hiding but nevertheless obvious owing to its height:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507606107

 

Has anyone got more info on these: drawings, dimensions, more photos, a model you have built?

Cheers,

Mol

Edited May 5 by Mol_PMB
marked in text

[Mol_PMB]

A few more pics found with another trawl through Flickr - more to show how these 'Bog Boys' stood out in a train of H vans or older vans, being higher and a bit longer. Ernie's photos on Flickr:

 

There was also a type of van that was similar in appearance but standard size.
The rake of vans here includes both types - the nearest van on the extreme right-hand edge is a nortmal-sized one, whereas the one in the distance just to the right of the loco is a 'Big Boy'. Planking arrangements and styling are similar. The normal-sized ones have deeper and narrower W-irons, and the vertical ribs on the sides are closer to the ends, whereas on the 'Big Boy' the vertical ribs are further from the ends (because the ends are extended).

 

[Mol_PMB]

A few more of the big ones.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257197990/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252071342/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508510346/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53501260495/

A bit of 15239:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255280193/

Height comparable to a Palvan; they both stand tall above the other types of van:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511154776/

Another ply-skinned one, 15578:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255882812/

Here's a ply-skinned one which has been repainted with a roundel:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511613289

 

On the other hand, here's one of the similarly-styled but normal-sized ones. These also seem to have a different door latch and handle arrangement to the big boys, and they have the narrow plate W-irons and taller journals:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253237643/

Middle van of the near three is another normal-sized one, compared to a GNR 10t van and an H van:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508655478/

 

[Mol_PMB]

Here's one of the wooden-framed type, now re-clad in ply, in 1955:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/49202953702

 

[Mol_PMB]

This photo from Ernie shows another 'Big Boy' van standing high over the adjacent H vans:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/51686535379 I'm still hoping to find a drawing or diagram for one of these, as I think they would make an interesting contrast to the IRM H vans and the other types available in kit form. The IRRS archive doesn't seem to include GSWR wagon diagrams though.

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

This photo from Ernie shows another 'Big Boy' van standing high over the adjacent H vans:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/51686535379 I'm still hoping to find a drawing or diagram for one of these, as I think they would make an interesting contrast to the IRM H vans and the other types available in kit form. The IRRS archive doesn't seem to include GSWR wagon diagrams though.

Unfortunately, during a huge clear-out of Inchicore Works in the early 1960s, thousands of diagrams of coaches, wagons and steam locomotives, many going back to earliest times, were all destroyed. We are actually lucky to have what we have!

[Horsetan]

22 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Unfortunately, during a huge clear-out of Inchicore Works in the early 1960s, thousands of diagrams of coaches, wagons and steam locomotives, many going back to earliest times, were all destroyed. We are actually lucky to have what we have!

Railway history was always a very poor and distant second

[Mol_PMB]

8 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Unfortunately, during a huge clear-out of Inchicore Works in the early 1960s, thousands of diagrams of coaches, wagons and steam locomotives, many going back to earliest times, were all destroyed. We are actually lucky to have what we have!

I wonder if the van preserved at Cultra is a variant of the ‘Big Boy’? Although the bodywork is quite different in style, it seems to have the same proportions. The underframe looks the same, unusually long compared to its wheelbase. 

Photo on Flickr by Adrian Roche:

Perhaps I need to go to Cultra with a tape measure? 

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I wonder if the van preserved at Cultra is a variant of the ‘Big Boy’? Although the bodywork is quite different in style, it seems to have the same proportions. The underframe looks the same, unusually long compared to its wheelbase. 

Photo on Flickr by Adrian Roche:

Perhaps I need to go to Cultra with a tape measure? 

It’s certainly those dimensions!

But like EVERY goods vehicle in Cultra, and almost every preserved one anywhere in this island, the livery is catastrophically (and inexcusably, for a museum) wrong!

This thing is the wrong grey, wrong style of lettering, even wrong colour lettering; as is the guards van beside it.

But at least the dimensions haven’t altered!

 

[Mol_PMB]

5 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

It’s certainly those dimensions!

But like EVERY goods vehicle in Cultra, and almost every preserved one anywhere in this island, the livery is catastrophically (and inexcusably, for a museum) wrong!

This thing is the wrong grey, wrong style of lettering, even wrong colour lettering; as is the guards van beside it.

But at least the dimensions haven’t altered!

 

Maybe you need to arrange a midnight visit to Cultra with a guerrilla gang of painters and signwriters? 

I am plotting a visit to Northern Ireland in late August to hopefully visit Cultra, Whitehead and Downpatrick. I'll take a tape measure. I know that both John and Leslie are refocusing away from offering wagon kits, but Marc Dobson at Pre-Grouping Railways is considering increasing his range of Irish wagon kits and a 'Big Boy' might make a nice addition to his range without duplicating what's been produced before.

I looked for 'Big Boy' vans in the Fry collection but didn't see any - he did make several other types of GSR and CIE vans. I enjoyed the welcome video

Fry's liveries generally look more plausible that Cultra's, though the silver Park Royal coach was a surprise! Do you have an approximate date for the changeover between eau-de-nil and white lettering on the vans, or was it a bit random?

Some pics of Fry's models of CIE goods vans, not 'Big Boys':

 

[jhb171achill]

30 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Maybe you need to arrange a midnight visit to Cultra with a guerrilla gang of painters and signwriters? 

I am plotting a visit to Northern Ireland in late August to hopefully visit Cultra, Whitehead and Downpatrick. I'll take a tape measure. I know that both John and Leslie are refocusing away from offering wagon kits, but Marc Dobson at Pre-Grouping Railways is considering increasing his range of Irish wagon kits and a 'Big Boy' might make a nice addition to his range without duplicating what's been produced before.

I looked for 'Big Boy' vans in the Fry collection but didn't see any - he did make several other types of GSR and CIE vans. I enjoyed the welcome video

Fry's liveries generally look more plausible that Cultra's, though the silver Park Royal coach was a surprise! Do you have an approximate date for the changeover between eau-de-nil and white lettering on the vans, or was it a bit random?

Some pics of Fry's models of CIE goods vans, not 'Big Boys':

 

Correct - Fry didn’t model a “big boy”.

Changeover from EdN to white “snails” and numerals was mid to late 1950s, often coinciding with the change from dark to lighter mid-grey.

And yes, as far as possible Fry’s liveries were 100% accurate in all respects.

Out of whim, though, he painted two GSR locos in 800 class green - even though these were grey all their lives!

Even with Fry, “Rule 1” applied!