Mol_PMB Posted April 17 Posted April 17 (edited) It appears that the GSWR introduced some unusually large goods vans, which survived into the 1960s and some into the 1970s. I've seen one reference where these are referred to as 'Big Boy' vans which seems appropriate even if they aren't Union Pacific Mallet locos - they are bigger than the rolling stock around them. I've gathered some photos but would welcome more information especially a drawing or a list of numbers. To illustrate the type of van I'm talking about, here's one pictured later in its life, image posted by Ernie on Flickr: They were significantly taller than the H vans and most other vans. I think they were also a bit longer, but this was exaggerated by the relatively short wheelbase and small W-irons and journals which gave them an 'elephant-on-a-skateboard' look! This HMRS photo of van 1150 dated 1907 shows an early variant with wooden body ribs; most of them had metal structural members. As far as I can tell they all had metal underframes. https://hmrs.org.uk/-abn530--10t-goods-van-gswr-1150--op--1907-r3l--open-spoke-wheels-photo-no--s-801.html This IRRS photo dated 1969 shows number 924, presumably in the same number series as 1150 above. However, 924 is the more common type with metal body framing and planked sides and ends. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511622719 The other photos I've found all seem to be in the 15000 series. Most have horizontally planked sides and ends, with vertically planked doors. Here's 15236 in 1975: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511125251 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570652283 15175 towering over an older 'convertible' van in 1957: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252992446 15279 in 1963: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257012444 15506 and 15515 in 1968: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570455881 A partial view from Ernie: (edit: removed photo of 15458 posted in error - not this type) The first photo I posted showed a van re-clad with ply, but retaining planked doors. There's a similar one here, partly hiding but nevertheless obvious owing to its height: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507606107 Has anyone got more info on these: drawings, dimensions, more photos, a model you have built? Cheers, Mol Edited May 5 by Mol_PMB marked in text 2 2 Quote
Mol_PMB Posted April 17 Author Posted April 17 A few more pics found with another trawl through Flickr - more to show how these 'Bog Boys' stood out in a train of H vans or older vans, being higher and a bit longer. Ernie's photos on Flickr: There was also a type of van that was similar in appearance but standard size. The rake of vans here includes both types - the nearest van on the extreme right-hand edge is a nortmal-sized one, whereas the one in the distance just to the right of the loco is a 'Big Boy'. Planking arrangements and styling are similar. The normal-sized ones have deeper and narrower W-irons, and the vertical ribs on the sides are closer to the ends, whereas on the 'Big Boy' the vertical ribs are further from the ends (because the ends are extended). 1 Quote
Mol_PMB Posted April 17 Author Posted April 17 A few more of the big ones. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257197990/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252071342/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508510346/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53501260495/ A bit of 15239: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255280193/ Height comparable to a Palvan; they both stand tall above the other types of van: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511154776/ Another ply-skinned one, 15578: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255882812/ Here's a ply-skinned one which has been repainted with a roundel: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511613289 On the other hand, here's one of the similarly-styled but normal-sized ones. These also seem to have a different door latch and handle arrangement to the big boys, and they have the narrow plate W-irons and taller journals: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253237643/ Middle van of the near three is another normal-sized one, compared to a GNR 10t van and an H van: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508655478/ 2 Quote
Mol_PMB Posted April 18 Author Posted April 18 Here's one of the wooden-framed type, now re-clad in ply, in 1955: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/49202953702 1 Quote
Mol_PMB Posted Wednesday at 18:56 Author Posted Wednesday at 18:56 This photo from Ernie shows another 'Big Boy' van standing high over the adjacent H vans: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/51686535379 I'm still hoping to find a drawing or diagram for one of these, as I think they would make an interesting contrast to the IRM H vans and the other types available in kit form. The IRRS archive doesn't seem to include GSWR wagon diagrams though. Quote
jhb171achill Posted Wednesday at 20:58 Posted Wednesday at 20:58 2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said: This photo from Ernie shows another 'Big Boy' van standing high over the adjacent H vans: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/51686535379 I'm still hoping to find a drawing or diagram for one of these, as I think they would make an interesting contrast to the IRM H vans and the other types available in kit form. The IRRS archive doesn't seem to include GSWR wagon diagrams though. Unfortunately, during a huge clear-out of Inchicore Works in the early 1960s, thousands of diagrams of coaches, wagons and steam locomotives, many going back to earliest times, were all destroyed. We are actually lucky to have what we have! 1 Quote
Horsetan Posted Wednesday at 21:22 Posted Wednesday at 21:22 22 minutes ago, jhb171achill said: Unfortunately, during a huge clear-out of Inchicore Works in the early 1960s, thousands of diagrams of coaches, wagons and steam locomotives, many going back to earliest times, were all destroyed. We are actually lucky to have what we have! Railway history was always a very poor and distant second 1 Quote
Mol_PMB Posted yesterday at 05:17 Author Posted yesterday at 05:17 8 hours ago, jhb171achill said: Unfortunately, during a huge clear-out of Inchicore Works in the early 1960s, thousands of diagrams of coaches, wagons and steam locomotives, many going back to earliest times, were all destroyed. We are actually lucky to have what we have! I wonder if the van preserved at Cultra is a variant of the ‘Big Boy’? Although the bodywork is quite different in style, it seems to have the same proportions. The underframe looks the same, unusually long compared to its wheelbase. Photo on Flickr by Adrian Roche: Perhaps I need to go to Cultra with a tape measure? 1 Quote
jhb171achill Posted yesterday at 10:01 Posted yesterday at 10:01 4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said: I wonder if the van preserved at Cultra is a variant of the ‘Big Boy’? Although the bodywork is quite different in style, it seems to have the same proportions. The underframe looks the same, unusually long compared to its wheelbase. Photo on Flickr by Adrian Roche: Perhaps I need to go to Cultra with a tape measure? It’s certainly those dimensions! But like EVERY goods vehicle in Cultra, and almost every preserved one anywhere in this island, the livery is catastrophically (and inexcusably, for a museum) wrong! This thing is the wrong grey, wrong style of lettering, even wrong colour lettering; as is the guards van beside it. But at least the dimensions haven’t altered! 1 Quote
Mol_PMB Posted yesterday at 10:22 Author Posted yesterday at 10:22 5 minutes ago, jhb171achill said: It’s certainly those dimensions! But like EVERY goods vehicle in Cultra, and almost every preserved one anywhere in this island, the livery is catastrophically (and inexcusably, for a museum) wrong! This thing is the wrong grey, wrong style of lettering, even wrong colour lettering; as is the guards van beside it. But at least the dimensions haven’t altered! Maybe you need to arrange a midnight visit to Cultra with a guerrilla gang of painters and signwriters? I am plotting a visit to Northern Ireland in late August to hopefully visit Cultra, Whitehead and Downpatrick. I'll take a tape measure. I know that both John and Leslie are refocusing away from offering wagon kits, but Marc Dobson at Pre-Grouping Railways is considering increasing his range of Irish wagon kits and a 'Big Boy' might make a nice addition to his range without duplicating what's been produced before. I looked for 'Big Boy' vans in the Fry collection but didn't see any - he did make several other types of GSR and CIE vans. I enjoyed the welcome video Fry's liveries generally look more plausible that Cultra's, though the silver Park Royal coach was a surprise! Do you have an approximate date for the changeover between eau-de-nil and white lettering on the vans, or was it a bit random? Some pics of Fry's models of CIE goods vans, not 'Big Boys': 1 Quote
jhb171achill Posted yesterday at 10:55 Posted yesterday at 10:55 30 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said: Maybe you need to arrange a midnight visit to Cultra with a guerrilla gang of painters and signwriters? I am plotting a visit to Northern Ireland in late August to hopefully visit Cultra, Whitehead and Downpatrick. I'll take a tape measure. I know that both John and Leslie are refocusing away from offering wagon kits, but Marc Dobson at Pre-Grouping Railways is considering increasing his range of Irish wagon kits and a 'Big Boy' might make a nice addition to his range without duplicating what's been produced before. I looked for 'Big Boy' vans in the Fry collection but didn't see any - he did make several other types of GSR and CIE vans. I enjoyed the welcome video Fry's liveries generally look more plausible that Cultra's, though the silver Park Royal coach was a surprise! Do you have an approximate date for the changeover between eau-de-nil and white lettering on the vans, or was it a bit random? Some pics of Fry's models of CIE goods vans, not 'Big Boys': Correct - Fry didn’t model a “big boy”. Changeover from EdN to white “snails” and numerals was mid to late 1950s, often coinciding with the change from dark to lighter mid-grey. And yes, as far as possible Fry’s liveries were 100% accurate in all respects. Out of whim, though, he painted two GSR locos in 800 class green - even though these were grey all their lives! Even with Fry, “Rule 1” applied! 1 Quote
Mayner Posted yesterday at 12:23 Posted yesterday at 12:23 (edited) Richard Chown had a pair of the original outside framed Big Boys on his Castle Rackrent layout possibly from a British manufacturers drawing or an 'Official' drawing from a private collection. There is a Brian Monaghan color photo of a MGW Convertible sandwiched between a pair of Long Toms on the Castle Rackrent "Keats and Chapman" mill siding Model Railways magazine possible May 76 edition There is a Metropolitan GSWR 1917 van (with end doors!) in the HMRS collection, there is no digital imaged but listed as as 17'5" ob interesting, but too short to be a Long Tom. Possibly someone on this group may have access to one of Richard Chown's Big Boys or access to Herbert Richards collection of wagon drawings Herbert (Herbie) produced high quality drawings of a MCW built GSWR 10T Open, GSR Grain, GN (Bogie) Guinness (Transport Research Associates), CIE 12T Standard Van (H) "The Irish Model Railway Company" 1964. Apparently Herbert who was once an MRSI member (way before the time I joined in the early 70s) was an active fine scale modeler with an interest in the GSWR who apparently built a model of Tullow station. Edited yesterday at 12:25 by Mayner 1 Quote
Horsetan Posted yesterday at 12:30 Posted yesterday at 12:30 2 hours ago, jhb171achill said: ...This thing is the wrong grey,... There's at least fifty shades... 3 Quote
Mol_PMB Posted yesterday at 13:01 Author Posted yesterday at 13:01 36 minutes ago, Mayner said: Richard Chown had a pair of the original outside framed Big Boys on his Castle Rackrent layout possibly from a British manufacturers drawing or an 'Official' drawing from a private collection. There is a Brian Monaghan color photo of a MGW Convertible sandwiched between a pair of Long Toms on the Castle Rackrent "Keats and Chapman" mill siding Model Railways magazine possible May 76 edition There is a Metropolitan GSWR 1917 van (with end doors!) in the HMRS collection, there is no digital imaged but listed as as 17'5" ob interesting, but too short to be a Long Tom. Possibly someone on this group may have access to one of Richard Chown's Big Boys or access to Herbert Richards collection of wagon drawings Herbert (Herbie) produced high quality drawings of a MCW built GSWR 10T Open, GSR Grain, GN (Bogie) Guinness (Transport Research Associates), CIE 12T Standard Van (H) "The Irish Model Railway Company" 1964. Apparently Herbert who was once an MRSI member (way before the time I joined in the early 70s) was an active fine scale modeler with an interest in the GSWR who apparently built a model of Tullow station. Many thanks John, that's most interesting. @Rob R has also been in touch with me and may be able to source a copy of a drawing. I was also looking at the HMRS drawing list including that GSWR 1917 van which sounds interesting but as you say it's not long enough. I did note that the HMRS have a good number of Irish drawings in their collection. Quote
Horsetan Posted yesterday at 13:04 Posted yesterday at 13:04 1 minute ago, Mol_PMB said: ...I did note that the HMRS have a good number of Irish drawings in their collection. HMRS are not very good at responding to enquiries about drawings they've listed, but not provided a price for. 1 Quote
Mayner Posted yesterday at 20:41 Posted yesterday at 20:41 7 hours ago, Horsetan said: HMRS are not very good at responding to enquiries about drawings they've listed, but not provided a price for. I obtained digital copies of HMRS drawings without any significant problems, possibly contacting the society directly rather than using their on-line system. Though some drawings may not have been scanned in the absence of a digital image. At the time I was in search of evidence to undermine JHBs claim that no 'long' British style 4w coaches existed in Ireland and managed to track down a drawing of a WCIR 24' WCIR Railway coach from the 1870s with quite ornate panneling 1 Quote
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