IRCH standard goods vans - wooden framed variant

[Mol_PMB]

In the early 1920s, the Irish Railway Clearing House (IRCH) published drawings for 'standard' designs of goods vans and high-sided open wagons, which henceforth would be the preferred designs used by many Irish railways. The designs were published in 1924, but had been under development for some years. 

Whilst this move was broadly contemporary with the British RCH revision of wagon designs in 1923, the Irish designs were quite different in dimensions, constructional details and appearance. They appear to have been based on what was considered 'best practice' by the Irish railways at the time, rather than to import design features from GB. Hardly surprising given the political atmosphere of those years! However, there was provision to use GB standard components where these might be more economic than non-standard parts.

A couple of years ago, @jhb171achill was kind enough to post the IRCH drawings as published in 1924, and these are immensely helpful:

A fair number of wagons had been built broadly to these designs as early as 1920, possibly earlier, and then formed the basis of the IRCH design recommendations. So we do find IRCH-type wagons built by or for the GSR constituents.

The IRCH designs covered 4 main wagon types:

• Goods van, wooden framed
• Goods van, steel framed
• Open wagon, wooden framed
• Open wagon, steel framed

The underframe designs could also be used for a wider range of wagon types if required. Over time, variants of these designs evolved to suit particular needs.

 

In this thread I am going to illustrate the wooden framed goods vans. These were based on an earlier GNR design, and were built by (or for) the GNR, GSR and MGWR, with several variants. Some remained in use into the 1970s and were painted in CIE red-brown livery. As far as I can tell, this design was not used by the other Irish companies - the GSWR and later CIE preferred the steel-framed van design and the DSER, BCDR, NCC etc went their own way.

This photo by Brian Flannigan on Flickr is a superb clear illustration of the standard design, in this case a GSR-built van:

Key spotting features of the design include:

• Wooden underframe, 9'6" wheelbase, W irons and oil axleboxes with tall rectangular covers
• Horizontally planked body, the same outside width as the solebars
• Vertically planked doors, with reinforcing strips top and bottom
• Vertical wooden stanchions
• The outer side panels are broader than the inner side panels
• Basic size and shape are the same as the H van (on the left)

Jackdaws perched on the roof are non-mandatory

 

Leslie has produced a kit of the GNR variant of this design, although I'm not sure whether these are still available.

 

 

more to follow...

[Mol_PMB]

These vans were based on a GNR design, so I ought to start with the GNR vans. But they're also the most complex and I'm still hoping that the IRRS will respond to my request to buy a scan of the GNR wagon diagram book, which will hopefully give me some more information on these.

 

So I'll start with the GSR. Information on these is also sparse but is unlikely to get better!

The GSR followed the GSWR system of allocating wagon numbers in blocks according to type. Based on legible numbers in photos published in books and online, the following numbers are known for GSR vans of this type:

157##, 15832, 15903, 15958, 15987, 16165, 16222, 16238, 16290.

It's likely that these formed a continuous number series of several hundred vehicles; they are generally common in photos. The older GSWR steel-framed vans had numbers up to at least 15762, and the bulk grain hoppers started at 16400, so these IRCH wood-framed vans probably filled most of the intervening series. I'll link some of the better photos of these that I've found so far. Note that you'll need to be an IRRS member to see those in the irishrailwayarchive; thanks to Ernie, Roger and Brian for making theirs available to all:

Here's an earlier photo in GSR livery, 16165:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507984162

A partial view in GSR livery:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509299965

16222 in early CIE livery:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508861551

More examples in the 1950s:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53500839161

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53501264990

The lowest-numbered example I've found, 157##, frustratingly the end of the number is cropped off:

16238:

A nice pair in 1964:

On the GNR main line but this appears to be a GSR-built van in the 15### series:

An excellent view of 16290:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511648564

Partial detail view of of 15987 at the brewery:

Nice view of 15958:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255280358

15903 as seen already, roundel livery in 1971:

Another unidentified van hiding in the background, included here because it illustrates one in the post-1970 livery, in 1971; though I can't be sure this is a GSR van:

 

These vans often appear in photos in books but rarely with legible numbers, an exception is 15832 in 'Steaming in Three Centuries' by Pryce, McAllister.

 

 

I hope this is of interest. I'll look at the MGWR vans next, then GNR, and then some of the variants. 

The GSR also had a double-skinned variant (built later than the ones shown above, and in a higher number series) and I'll look at those after I've dealt with the standard ones.

[jhb171achill]

I think that’s a 1930s GSR van….

[David Holman]

Compared to this side of the water (where even obscure companies seem to have at least one book about their wagons), it is a neglected area in Ireland, so these notes are really useful.

[Mol_PMB]

I’m still working my way through my books and other online sources such as the nli archive. Happily I am finding some more good photos including three more MGWR vans of this type. I’ll have reviewed over 40,000 photos by the time I’m done. 
Even Ernie’s most recent uploads are adding to the dataset - many thanks!
I’ll aim to do an MGWR update this week. I’m quite well placed for the GSR double-skinned vans too. Hopefully I can get some more GNR info soon. 

[Mol_PMB]

I'll now look at the MGWR vans to the IRCH wood-framed design. 

Some, perhaps all, of these were built as 'convertible', i.e. the centre part of the roof above the doors was missing, and designed to be covered by a tarpaulin. They had special roping eyes on the side uprights so that the tarpaulin could be held taut.
Some may have been modified with normal roofs later.

Here are the few photos I've found:

3318M at Kenmare in 1958, from 'Irish Railways in Colour: a second glance' (Ferris):

Ferbane in 1958, wagon number not legible, from 'Lost Lines Ireland' (Welbourn):

From the NLI archive, here's 3286M at Liffey Junction in 1939, a useful view of the roof. This is part of a much larger image that will interest wagon nerds: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000303458

Another NLI Archive image, this time dated 1950 at Tuam, shows antother convertible with a conventional roofed van behind. Neither number is visible. https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000303499

Here's a very nice NLI view of two ex-MGWR 'convertibles' at Ferbane (again) in 1959 - numbers 3261M and perhaps 3262M. The latter has been re-clad in sheet material replacing or overlaying the planks.

A GSWR 'Big Boy' is visible beyond. https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304064

 

Some of these MGWR vans survived into the 1970s, and there's an excellent IRRS photo of 3259M at Limerick in 1970, newly overhauled and repainted in red-brown livery with roundel:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511621949

This number falls within the series of MGWR 'convertibles' but 3259M has a normal full roof and I'd guess that it was modified at some stage in its life, losing the roof hatch.

 

The identifiable numbers of the MGWR IRCH vans are as follows, and these suggest they were numbered in a block of at least 60 vehicles:

3259M, 3261M, 3262M, 3286M, 3318M

I have a couple of books on the MGWR but they don't give specific details of these vans. The MGWR wagon statistics quoted in Ernie Shepherd's book have some odd gaps in the table for covered vans in the 1920s.

 

One of these would provide an interesting variation in a train of newer CIE vans.

[Mayner]

8 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I'll now look at the MGWR vans to the IRCH wood-framed design. 

Some, perhaps all, of these were built as 'convertible', i.e. the centre part of the roof above the doors was missing, and designed to be covered by a tarpaulin. They had special roping eyes on the side uprights so that the tarpaulin could be held taut.
Some may have been modified with normal roofs later.

Here are the few photos I've found:

3318M at Kenmare in 1958, from 'Irish Railways in Colour: a second glance' (Ferris):

Ferbane in 1958, wagon number not legible, from 'Lost Lines Ireland' (Welbourn):

From the NLI archive, here's 3286M at Liffey Junction in 1939, a useful view of the roof. This is part of a much larger image that will interest wagon nerds: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000303458

Another NLI Archive image, this time dated 1950 at Tuam, shows antother convertible with a conventional roofed van behind. Neither number is visible. https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000303499

Here's a very nice NLI view of two ex-MGWR 'convertibles' at Ferbane (again) in 1959 - numbers 3261M and perhaps 3262M. The latter has been re-clad in sheet material replacing or overlaying the planks.

A GSWR 'Big Boy' is visible beyond. https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304064

 

Some of these MGWR vans survived into the 1970s, and there's an excellent IRRS photo of 3259M at Limerick in 1970, newly overhauled and repainted in red-brown livery with roundel:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511621949

This number falls within the series of MGWR 'convertibles' but 3259M has a normal full roof and I'd guess that it was modified at some stage in its life, losing the roof hatch.

 

The identifiable numbers of the MGWR IRCH vans are as follows, and these suggest they were numbered in a block of at least 60 vehicles:

3259M, 3261M, 3262M, 3286M, 3318M

I have a couple of books on the MGWR but they don't give specific details of these vans. The MGWR wagon statistics quoted in Ernie Shepherd's book have some odd gaps in the table for covered vans in the 1920s.

 

One of these would provide an interesting variation in a train of newer CIE vans.

 

Info from P O'Cuimin Feb 1970 IRRS Journal Paper "Wagon SAtock of the MGWR

 

Midland Hard Topped 1915 Covered Wagons for Guinness Traffic

The MGWR predominentaly used Standard Covered (convertible) Wagons as opposed to Cattle Wagons to handle the heavy cattle traffic from the seasonal Fairs. The Midland listed 1646 Covered Goods & 635 Cattle Trucks in its 1910 rolling stock return. The 1924 return lists 459 Cattle Trucks

) no Covered Goods are listed in the 1920 & 1924. Although the Midland had a small (approx 400) fleet of covered Cattle Trucks, covered cattle wagons only became common on the Midland following the Amalgamation with the arrival of large numbers of ex-GSWR 14' Cattle Wagons (classed K)

The MGWR continued to build its "Standard"7t -14'  Covered Wagons with curving roofs up to the 1915 introduction of a 10t -9'6" ---16'8" (overheadstocks) covered wagon with continuous roof for Guinness Traffic.  Released into service in 1916, Nos 19,46,112.127,235,286,302,332,448,492,561,579,812,839,899,936,945,966.988,1020,1-69,1173,1183,1409.  These 'Guinness" wagons appear visually similar to to the outside framed vans used by the GNR(I) and SLNCR during the same era.  The Midland had an earlier shorther curved roof version of the Guinness Wagon complete with large "Guinness" lettering on the side panels. I don't know whether the 1915 wagons carried similar lettering.

Midland Hard Topped and Convertible IRCH pattern Wagons 1922-24.

Between 1922 & 1924 300 1oT 10T-9'6" wb 16'11"(OHS) wagons were built  to the IRCH specification-------------150 Open Centre. Height over rail of the open centre type 11'71/8 " same as the 1915 Guinness Wagons, Continuous roofed 11'5¼"

1922 batch:35,5587,131,279,809,838,859,884,980,1174,1186,1202,1211,1386,1388,1428,1482. 

1923 batch 1,9,21,38,70,65,80,113,146,210,217,,217,217,533,609,620,636,707,806896,943,1091,1175,1412,1436,1473,1222,1737,1767,2110,2187,2288,,2430,2479,2535,2898,2909, and 3200-3350

1924 batch, 41,147,212,298,313,323,347,,363,398,401,,456,483,536,590,606,611,629,650,663,685,696,700,701,716,719,720,725,755,,762,779,,790,,880,891,905,908,917,927,944,951,953,959,961,990,992,993,994,1008,1031-33,1038,1058,1059,1188,1212,1726,1751,2037,2060,2095,2204,2296,2459,2664,2466,2468,2469,2471,2472,2480,2482,2488,2496,2499,2500,2403,2510,2526,2532,2533,2537,2543,2454.

Models of IRCH vans

My first attempt in 4mm was to scratch build the vans in plasticard about 30 years ago with scribed planking and Northwest Stripwood framing in 21mm gauge wusing SSM Wirons 'standard' Gibson EM/OO wheel sets with axles extended to 28mm by cutting and sleeving with 2mm brass tubing, models never progressed to the detail stage but look ok at a distance,I had a attempted to scratchbuild a MGWR 1875 Goods Brake during the same era with individually applied plasticard bolt and strapping detail on the timber framing.

Jeremy Suter released a very nice whitemetal kits or the GNR/IRCH van, along with a MGWR "Open Box Wagon" and GNR & NCC Bread Container Wagons about 25 years ago but kits have not been repeated.

I have a 'stash' of Leslies Provincial GNR IRCH Vans and Cattle Wagon kits, if I ever get round to assembling them!

 

 

Edited yesterday at 01:34 by Mayner

[Mol_PMB]

John,

Very many thanks for providing that valuable information - from a source I didn't have access to. It's interesting to hear about the Guinness vans that were predecessors to the IRCH standard ones, and I'll keep an eye out for photos of these, I'm sure I've seen one or two though they may have been GNR examples.

Regarding the MGWR IRCH vans, it's great to know that there were 150 'convertible' and another 150 with continuous roofs. I suspect that the small height difference you quote was a result of the longitudinal rib across the middle of the roof opening (visible in two of the photos in my previous post). 

The number lists are very useful. It's interesting that all the numbers I had identified from photos are in the 3200-3350 range of the 1923 batch. I think there are 289 numbers listed so almost all of them. 18 built in 1922, 188 in 1923 and 83 in 1924. I wouldn't have guessed at all the random numbers of the other vans (no doubt replacing withdrawn older vehicles with those numbers).

There's another NLI archive image of a rake of freshly-overhauled wagons at Limerick in 1964, which includes several IRCH-type vans. One of them is 1726, seen below. The number has a suffix but I couldn't read it, and potentially it could be N or M. 

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307038

We now know from the number listing you quoted that the MGWR had a van of this type numbered 1726 (in the 1924-built batch). So I think it's likely that this image does show 1726M rather than a former GNR van. It has a continuous roof, which may be an original feature or a later modification. The livery here is pale grey with white roundel and lettering.

 

Thie IRRS photo dated 1955 shows an IRCH van in CIE snail livery, with a suffixed number - again the suffix is illegible. There's also a very similar photo in Ernie's collection on Flickr, also linked below.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53501264990

Since 1955 was before the GNR split, I think this must also be an MGWR example. The visible part of the number is 370 but there may be another digit hiding in the shadow.

 

Thanks for the summary of the models - the whitemetal kit would appeal to me if it were still available but it sounds like they're long-vanished.

The construction style of these vans is very different from most GB goods vans, particularly the side planking flush with the solebar, and the vertical timbers. I haven't found anything similar to use as a basis.

Here's a link to the image of the GNR 10-ton van on Leslie's website. I asked whether he still has many (any) in stock, but he's on holiday at present and not in a position to check.

Given Leslie's impending retirement, I think these IRCH vans could be a good subject for a 3D printed kit. They would be prototypical for a 50-year period (1920s to 1970s) across the whole island, and could be lettered for MGWR, GSR, GNR, CIE, or UTA. The drawings are available (see link in the first post of this thread) so it should be possible to make them dimensionally accurate without any guesswork.

 

In due course I'll write about the GNR vans and the GSR double-skinned variant. I need to do some more research on both of those first! This nice photo from Brian Flannigan on Flickr shows one of each, in 1971: