MGWR Terminus, minories style track plan?

[GSR 800]

I've decided after a lot of back and forth to put Mullingar on hold until such time I have enough space for it all without significant compromise.

I've decided to cut back to an L shaped end to end urbanish terminus layout based on the MGWR, ideally with a good bit of inspo from Mullingar itself. The two "legs" of the L are just over 12 foot, and both about 2 foot wide, though i can go out to 6 foot toward the end of one of the L legs. Moving a chest of drawers means I could have 15ft one of the legs. I have a turntable pit in the corner of the L. 

I've long been interested in Cyril Freezers iconic "Minories" track plan. 

(From Harlequin on RMweb)

One aspect I would like to have which the traditional Minories lacks is a decent amount of freight.

Freezer added a few "add ons" to Minories which can be seen here. The junction to the freight yard/wharf is very reminiscent of many of the MGWR terminis separate freight facilities. (From RMweb)

I like the "idea" of this, but space would be the big factor here. I'm also trying to keep things from getting too large or complicated. Im more than happy to have freight at the terminus itself if it simplifies things and keeps them compact

Much of the other half of the L would have to be taken up by the fiddle yard, of course. An 800 and 6 coaches (max length I'd go for) is pretty bang on 6 foot

Thoughts would be appreciated!

 

Edited Tuesday at 09:03 by GSR 800

[Mol_PMB]

Very interesting! I think you're right to try and keep it fairly simple and achievable.

I trust you have read through some of the thread on RMweb, which has now reached 172 pages!

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/60091-theory-of-general-minories/page/172/#findComment-6219164

Minories was originally conceived as a suburban terminus with a frequent service of short trains worked by tank engines, or railcars. More akin to the BCDR than the MGWR. But having said that, there is genius in the layout of the station throat and it should be adaptable for other purposes.  

Your station platform needs to be long enough for your longest train, plus a loco at BOTH ends (7'). Adding on the length of the throat pointwork (4') and the curve round the corner of the L (say 3'), I think you're going to be struggling to fit it in the 12' length. Best to draw it out to scale before committing to anything. 

 

[GSR 800]

55 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Very interesting! I think you're right to try and keep it fairly simple and achievable.

I trust you have read through some of the thread on RMweb, which has now reached 172 pages!

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/60091-theory-of-general-minories/page/172/#findComment-6219164

Minories was originally conceived as a suburban terminus with a frequent service of short trains worked by tank engines, or railcars. More akin to the BCDR than the MGWR. But having said that, there is genius in the layout of the station throat and it should be adaptable for other purposes.  

Your station platform needs to be long enough for your longest train, plus a loco at BOTH ends (7'). Adding on the length of the throat pointwork (4') and the curve round the corner of the L (say 3'), I think you're going to be struggling to fit it in the 12' length. Best to draw it out to scale before committing to anything. 

 

Can always cut back to 5 coaches if necessary, with scenic blocks and whatnot train length can be disguised quite effectively! With the moving of a chest of drawers i can get 15 ft on one side.

Ive looked quite extensively at the theories of general minories thread, one of the many gold nuggets on the RMWeb IMO

 

Edited Monday at 18:40 by GSR 800

[GSR 800]

15 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

Can always cut back to 5 coaches if necessary, with scenic blocks and whatnot train length can be disguised quite effectively! 

Ive looked quite extensively at the theories of general minories thread, one of the many gold nuggets on the RMWeb IMO

 

 

[GSR 800]

Theres an excellent blog that had covered many Minories track plans over the years. https://esngblog.com/2018/02/18/minories-5-more-urban-layouts/

Two pictures in particular caught my eye.

The top one has a third 'relief' line. I was thinking this could an out and back branch to a quay. Possibly adding a goods dock combined with the goods shed would not be dissimilar to Galway.

 

The second photo with the track plan has a lot of potential. Classic Minories, plenty of room for freight and one of the sidings could again be a branch off to a quay. 

 

[Mayner]

 

The "Is Minories Operationally Satisfying' thread goes into the pioneering O gauge Maybank layout of the 30s thats said to have inspired Cyril Freezers Minories design. 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/131100-is-minories-operationally-satisfying/page/8/

Maybank (O gauge) featured a 4 platform main line terminus to fiddle yard (possibly first) with the loco depot located above the fiddle yard( 4 road motorised traverser) with a single line linking the terminus and loco depot. I was lucky enough to see a similar O gauge Milton Keynes club layout at a Home Counties exhibition during the late 80s and fascinated by its realistic operation, unfortunately the layout was dismantled when I joined the club during the early 90s.

Interestingly I worked on a construction site in "The Minories" an City of London street during the late 80s, I regularly used LT for my daily commute from Kingsbury to Aldgate.  Highling of the day was the evening commute by a direct (limited stop) Metropolitan Line service from one of Aldgate's terminal platforms over the Circle and Metropolitan Lines to Finchely Road before changing to the Jubilee Line for the remainder of my journey home. At the time Aldgate was interesting an island platform through station with two terminal platforms for Metropolitan Line services all beneath and overall roof with good natural lighting at platform level,  apparrently buried beneath some office block these days.

Going back to a Midland theme Sligo almost fits the Maybank-Minories theme with loco depot separate from passenger station and branch line to Quays, though could always model a version of Galway with loco depot ooof or on scene at Renmore. Main challenge would seem to be fitting the carriage sidings between the arrival and departure platforms characteristic of MGWR principal terminals.

[GSR 800]

27 minutes ago, Mayner said:

 

The "Is Minories Operationally Satisfying' thread goes into the pioneering O gauge Maybank layout of the 30s thats said to have inspired Cyril Freezers Minories design. 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/131100-is-minories-operationally-satisfying/page/8/

Maybank (O gauge) featured a 4 platform main line terminus to fiddle yard (possibly first) with the loco depot located above the fiddle yard( 4 road motorised traverser) with a single line linking the terminus and loco depot. I was lucky enough to see a similar O gauge Milton Keynes club layout at a Home Counties exhibition during the late 80s and fascinated by its realistic operation, unfortunately the layout was dismantled when I joined the club during the early 90s.

Interestingly I worked on a construction site in "The Minories" an City of London street during the late 80s, I regularly used LT for my daily commute from Kingsbury to Aldgate.  Highling of the day was the evening commute by a direct (limited stop) Metropolitan Line service from one of Aldgate's terminal platforms over the Circle and Metropolitan Lines to Finchely Road before changing to the Jubilee Line for the remainder of my journey home. At the time Aldgate was interesting an island platform through station with two terminal platforms for Metropolitan Line services all beneath and overall roof with good natural lighting at platform level,  apparrently buried beneath some office block these days.

Going back to a Midland theme Sligo almost fits the Maybank-Minories theme with loco depot separate from passenger station and branch line to Quays, though could always model a version of Galway with loco depot ooof or on scene at Renmore. Main challenge would seem to be fitting the carriage sidings between the arrival and departure platforms characteristic of MGWR principal terminals.

Newford (Later Littleton) is an O gauge Minories with a carriage siding between platform 1 and 2 

Likewise Harlequin has made up some Minories esque plans with 'Daws Lane', one of which includes carriage sidings within. With a bit of extra width you could have 2 carriage sidings between the 2 platforms. 

I do have some space to have the goods yard angle off ala Galway toward a pier, which would use up a corner space quite effectively.

Maybank was the progenitor to Minories style layouts and indeed many modern end to end exhibition layouts generally. The emphasis seemed to be primarily upon operation rather than scenery or locos, rolling stock etc.

Edited Tuesday at 11:29 by GSR 800

[Colonel]

Not read the RM thread on Minories, but when you look at his Peco track plan booklets, it is clear that his main interest was passenger operations with freight traffic almost an afterthought. Contrast that with Iain Rice's designs where he took the view that on a terminus layout, most of the interest was in shunting, so goods facilities much more important.

 City termini always tended to be compact, because land was expensive and linear layouts often mean goods yards were further back up the line. Have always thought that parcels and van traffic fit in better with a city terminus, while the Sligo situation with the line to the quays kicking back from the terminus works well too. Ok, on a model railway, a freight comes into the terminus, only to reverse back out again to the (presumably hidden) quays, but traffic can be as varied as you like.The

 The thing about Minories style layouts is that they offer intensive operation in a relatively small space and seem a good alternative to just having trains go round and round an oval. 

 As in all things with model railways, variety means there should something for every interest.

[GSR 800]

1 hour ago, Colonel said:

Not read the RM thread on Minories, but when you look at his Peco track plan booklets, it is clear that his main interest was passenger operations with freight traffic almost an afterthought. Contrast that with Iain Rice's designs where he took the view that on a terminus layout, most of the interest was in shunting, so goods facilities much more important.

 City termini always tended to be compact, because land was expensive and linear layouts often mean goods yards were further back up the line. Have always thought that parcels and van traffic fit in better with a city terminus, while the Sligo situation with the line to the quays kicking back from the terminus works well too. Ok, on a model railway, a freight comes into the terminus, only to reverse back out again to the (presumably hidden) quays, but traffic can be as varied as you like.The

 The thing about Minories style layouts is that they offer intensive operation in a relatively small space and seem a good alternative to just having trains go round and round an oval. 

 As in all things with model railways, variety means there should something for every interest.

Certainly for Minories, his initial proposal with goods facilities was nothing more than an awkwardly tacked on double tracked goods shed and a headshunt.

I think a lot can be done with the space though, very often the empty wedge at the bottom right gets goods sidings, a parcel dock and whatnot.

I've also considered a duel level plan with a yard on the lower level, ala Rice.

 

[Northroader]

I think you could shorten a Minories plan by making the approach tracks both two way working into the fiddle yard, saying that the necessary crossovers are just round the corner off the scene. 
Then I started thinking about a slimmed down version of Sligo. You could have goods trains coming and going on a siding or two at the front, before they go on “down to the docks”, but save on the space needed for a full size goods yard? 
Then again Westland Row/ Pearse south end has all the makings of a good Minories layout.

[Mayner]

The loco spur was a critical part of the orignal Minories (Min-ories) design as the "City" terminus of an intensively worked inner suburban service.

A loco from the spur would couple on to the rear of a train following arrival to work the next departure, while the 'train engine" would follow the departing train to take its place in the spur (servicing & watering) before working the next departure, so potentially a lot of loco movement/shunting rather than carriage/non-passenger stock movement, not dis-similar to Heuston 70s-2000s(without the carriage wash movements) Not sure if this type of intensive suburban operation existed in Ireland during the steam era possibly BCDR to Hollywood, Bangor or Comber, DSER/GSR Amiens St/Westland Row-Kingstown short distance workings.

I helped operate the late Jim Beale's (MRSI & Marks Models) OO Minories style 70s-90s era BR layout at the Bangor Exhibition 25-30 years ago, we were kept busy keeping things moving using 1st & 2nd Generation DMUs. To add variety the layout included a parcels dock and Class 31 hauled (4 bogie vans (BR PLV?) which required a run-round and shunting movement, tried once during the exhibition before reverting to exclusively DMU operation for the remainder of the exhibition as it brought all other movements to a halt.

I guess in a MGWR context a J26 or even a G2 could act as station pilot drawing out the coaches to release the train loco after arrival and making up the departing train including adding vans and non-passenger stock while the train loco is turned and serviced before its next departure. I found from operating my garden railway that there are advantages in operating a leisurly service with 1-2 return services during an operating session. 

With Sligo there is the added variety of incorporating SLNCR & WLWR workings and incorporating Clifden workings into a layout based on Galway with arriving and departing trains apparrently required to run-round on the Lough Atila Viaduct, Board of Trade banned Clifden trains propelling in and out of the station before opening.

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

The layout of the station throat is what defines Minories - take away the crossovers and it is no longer Minories!

Minories is based on high frequency suburban traffic and one key feature of the trackplan is that trains can arrive into and depart from all platforms, without shunting.

A typical long-distance terminus in the steam age wasn’t operated like this. Often there were separate arrival and departure platforms and the stock would be shunted from one to the other, allowing the loco to be released. Places like Heuston and Limerick operated like this into the 1990s.

[GSR 800]

Did a wee mock up last night to see how things would fit.

Ignore the mess!

I was thinking a triangular corner piece could be used to have a line leading off toward the pier. Alternatively could have the pier line be goung forward into the wedge. Either way plenty of space for sidings. Could have a run around off Platform 3 with a headshunt off the lower double slip also.

 

Edited 23 hours ago by GSR 800

[Tractionman]

39 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

take away the crossovers and it is no longer Minories!

it seems a complex arrangement -- fine for a very confined urban setting, as was originally envisaged for the plan, but perhaps a bit too complex for a location where space was/is less of an issue?

whereabouts on the MGWR might a station have warranted such a configuration? 

I like a set of crossovers too at the teminus to release the loco to run around, whereas Minories is more for through-running and / or unit-based operations rather than loco-haulage?

cheers,

Keith

 

 

[GSR 800]

1 hour ago, Tractionman said:

it seems a complex arrangement -- fine for a very confined urban setting, as was originally envisaged for the plan, but perhaps a bit too complex for a location where space was/is less of an issue?

whereabouts on the MGWR might a station have warranted such a configuration? 

I like a set of crossovers too at the teminus to release the loco to run around, whereas Minories is more for through-running and / or unit-based operations rather than loco-haulage?

cheers,

Keith

 

 

The overall idea is an urban terminus loosely in the style of something like Broadstone, Galway or Sligo, with a good amount of passenger workings and freight in off peak.

Minories was designed around loco hauled commuter trains (specifically steam hauled) rather than DMUs.

The idea of the throat is twofold, allowing all platforms accessed from either road and to eliminate reverse curves, while also providing an interestingly complex looking throat without actually being too complicated. 

Part of that is the lack of crossovers, the station pilot must release the trapped loco from the end of the platform. That said I may have a crossover line off platform 3 to facilitate shunting.

 

Edited 22 hours ago by GSR 800

[Tractionman]

12 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

the station pilot must release the trapped loco

ah understood, that makes sense--I guess DCC would make this easier in model form, I run DC so would need isolating sections!

[GSR 800]

Just now, Tractionman said:

ah understood, that makes sense--I guess DCC would make this easier in model form, I run DC so would need isolating sections!

It would, but Minories was of course drawn up long before DCC!

The likes of Peter Denny had extensive layouts with interlocking sections where lines were not powered unless they were signalled for it, all DC. He ended up making a electromechanical computer to aid in operation when his son went to college, naming it 'Automatic Crispin'!

 

[Mayner]

38 minutes ago, Tractionman said:

it seems a complex arrangement -- fine for a very confined urban setting, as was originally envisaged for the plan, but perhaps a bit too complex for a location where space was/is less of an issue?

whereabouts on the MGWR might a station have warranted such a configuration? 

I like a set of crossovers too at the teminus to release the loco to run around, whereas Minories is more for through-running and / or unit-based operations rather than loco-haulage?

cheers,

Keith

 

The MGWR used similar complex arrangements at several of its major stations (Broadstone, Mullingar, Galway, Sligo) and even double slip connections to goods yards at  Edenderry and Kingscourt quiet branch line terminals.  Galway station is in a compact urban location hemed in by Lough Atila to the east the connections to the Goods Yard (former Dock Branch) and Loco Depot & Clifden Branch fanning out  on either side of the main-line at the station throat. Up to the 2000s the connection from main line to goods yard/loop included a double slip.  At Sligo the connections to the loco depot and Quay Branch made in relatively compact location though unsure whether complex trackwork was required on crossover between up & down main line and quay branch.

The normal practice a both Galway and Sligo the normal practice during the 70s-2000s era of loco-haulage was for the loco to propel passenger train out past the signal cabin/station throat before running round on the long loop outside the station, before propelling the train back into the station. 

For many years Sligo continued to operate separate arrival and departure platforms, Galway (& Broadstone) lost their 'arrival platforms" under GSR ownership during the 30s.

I guess a Galway or Sligo style run round/shunting movement could be performed by running into the fiddle yard with a suitable view blocker.

Minories appears to have been originally designed around the intensive steam hauled suburban operation like the "GER Jazz" services that operated in some of the major UK cities before the days of electrification & unit-based operations. Basically frequent suburban trains arrived and departed behind different locos.  A loco from a loco spur or depot would couple up to a train after arrival and work the next departure, the train engine would then take its place at the spur or depot awaiting the next departure. Not unlike the operation of loco hauled services at Heuston in later years where another loco would couple on to the rear of an arriving Intercity service, releasing the train loco after departure to the Valeting plant or a main line departure.

[Tractionman]

15 minutes ago, Mayner said:

The normal practice a both Galway and Sligo the normal practice during the 70s-2000s era of loco-haulage was for the loco to propel passenger train out past the signal cabin/station throat before running round on the long loop outside the station, before propelling the train back into the station. 

interesting thanks for this--I might have to consider this too as an option! 

I still have not settled on a plan--so this discussion is all very helpful, and giving me food for thought

cheers,

Keith

[Tractionman]

prompting me to have a look at the OS 25" plans on Geohive, not sure of the dates of these, I like the look of Sligo with the engine shed at one end and the station at the other:

 

 

 

though Galway looks good too:

 

[Mol_PMB]

Yes, I think both Sligo and Galway are very good inspirations for this layout. With a bit of selective simplification they could fit and be interesting to operate.

Both had a double-track approach. 

Galway is wide whereas Sligo is long and thin.

Here's a couple of shots of Sligo in 1959 which illustrate the station throat in the map above. Note the short siding with a gas tank in it. The two middle roads could be reduced to one to save space, without losing much. The loco shed and turntable could fit nicely in the corner of your L.

 

[Celtic_transport]

Galway could be an interesting choice if you modelled it after the clifden branch closed in 1935, would then just depend on when the spur to the docks closed, the station footprint would become considerably thinner and more in style of minories

[GSR 800]

58 minutes ago, Celtic_transport said:

Galway could be an interesting choice if you modelled it after the clifden branch closed in 1935, would then just depend on when the spur to the docks closed, the station footprint would become considerably thinner and more in style of minories

My plan may include a Galway style freight yard + dock branch as I've the space for it but Galway has a lot of potential as a Minories. Now arguably moreso with new platforms and more intensive passenger operation.

Sligo likewise, and plenty of variety. My model will likely have elements of both, some of Broadstone and Mullingar also.

 

[Celtic_transport]

3 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

My plan may include a Galway style freight yard + dock branch as I've the space for it but Galway has a lot of potential as a Minories. Now arguably moreso with new platforms and more intensive passenger operation.

Sligo likewise, and plenty of variety. My model will likely have elements of both, some of Broadstone and Mullingar also.

 

Sligo then is probably the best option to base your layout off, already a thin footprint, and a lot more track work down the harbour branch with the goods shed also down there. 

[Mol_PMB]

Sligo would make a nice model, and could be simplified/compressed without losing the essence of the prototype. It may only have had a few trains each day, but they were each distinctive and could make an interesting sequence for model railway operation. The main part of the station platforms would only be about 4' long in 4mm scale, and many photos show the trains being too long for the platforms with the loco beyond the platform starting signal.

The two platforms were strictly arrival and departure - and it appears that the signalling did not permit a train to depart from the platform it had arrived at - even into the 1990s. That makes it operationally more interesting. When most trains were operated by AEC railcars, they could have some tail traffic that needed shunting by a pilot loco. 

 

[GSR 800]

49 minutes ago, Celtic_transport said:

Sligo then is probably the best option to base your layout off, already a thin footprint, and a lot more track work down the harbour branch with the goods shed also down there. 

I've lots of space for goods sidings in the 'wedge' below the throat. I plan on adding a triangular piece into the corner so the line can veer off ala Galway.

The idea is a vague large western city served by the MGWR, so everything from an SLNCR railbus to Western Rail Corridor services would be able to show up. Perhaps this city has had better luck getting liners with their lucrative mail contracts to call there, as Galway desperately tried to achieve.

 

[Mayner]

A great "might of been" was the early 1900s proposal of Blacksod Bay as a terminus for Trans-Atlantic liner traffic as part of the "All Red Route" (all British) mail route between the United Kingdom and Canada and ultimately the Far East & Australia using Canadian Pacific railway and steam ship services.  

Proposals included setting up a new steam-ship company/line to operate between the United Kingdom & Canada and lines linking the Blacksod Bay terminus with the Irish Railway system and apparrently a proposal for a rail ferry between Holyhead and Dublin for trans-Atlantic passengers. 

https://www.archiseek.com/1915-railway-terminus-blacksod-bay-co-mayo/ Interestingly the Archiseek article writes about Blacksod ousting Liverpool as the departure point for British passenger traffic, but for Scandanavia too!  My late father in law's family emigrated from Norway to farm in the US Mid-West during the 1880s, perhaps the British realised that it needed hardy Scandanavians to settle/farm its grain growing provinces.

There seems to have been attempts to revive the proposal during the 1920s including re-gauging the C&L as part of a route linking Greenore and Blacksod, the proposal overtaken by World events (WW1 & events in Ireland) and developments in technology (faster ships & aeroplanes!

Potentially interesting model if built and Liners continued to call into the 1950s, sleepy "Minories" terminus with sparce local passenger & goods traffic, possibly once-twice weekly boat trains in connection with Trans-Atlantic sailings.