Did NCC rolling stock ever go south to Dublin?

[Old Blarney]

Help please!

 

Can anyone out there confirm if the LMS/NCC ever ran a train of theirs to Dublin or anywhere else in the South of Ireland?

 

If they did can anyone tell me the year/s when the train/s ran?

What locomotive was used?

Any photographs would be really useful please!

 

Reason for my request for assistance with this matter - I wish to run some LMS/NCC rolling stock on Old Blarney, and would be nice to be in the position to state this type of train movement did happen!

 

If such a movement never happened then it will just have to be one of those tall stories that one tells to the unsuspecting viewer at exhibitions!!!

 

Thank you, in expectation,

 

David J White.

[Riversuir226]

There was an annual pigeon special that went to West Cork up until closure of the line in 1961 & after this went to Albert qy. There was also the Enterprise which ran too Cork for a while in the early 1950's. On a more modern note Nir railcars ran to Cork for a concert and they also operated on loan for a while, plus off course 112/113/111/8208/209 have been known to venture south over the years. Good to see you back David

[Old Blarney]

Thank you for your reply and kind remark.

 

David.

[minister_for_hardship]

Don't know about an entire train...Must get the exact reference but recall reading that a wagon (think it was an MRNCC one) from Belfast containing seed potatoes and the like was set abaze at Limerick Jct during the Civil War, so single wagons were definitely not unknown...and the GSR Appendix had sets of instructions about working locos,wagons etc from other companies over its metals.

 

Maybe looking at things like rugby/football/GAA/pilgrimage specials might be an idea?

[Dhu Varren]

Don't know about any NCC workings south of the border. It is possible that coaching stock could have worked through on a special, but I think it would be very unlikely that an NCC loco would have hauled any working over GNR metals, as a reversal would have been necessary at Lisburn. The GNR might even have taken over at Antrim with a smaller class of loco to work over the Antrim - Lisburn branch which did have weight and speed restrictions, followed by a main line engine taking over at Lisburn.

Even the Enterprise workings to Cork mentioned already only used GNR motive power as far as Dublin, and then CIE motive power for the Dublin to Cork leg.

Anyway, when I once queried a Regional Railways liveried 150 DMU masquerading as an NIR 450 running on Old Blarney, you politely informed me that 'it is my railway and I will run what I like on it'. So run an NCC train on the layout, at least it is Irish.

[Old Blarney]

Gang,

 

Thank you for the replies. I was aware of the Enterprise workings to Cork, remember them well; even remember seeing a Great Northern engine passing through Tara Street when I was a nipper in the late 1940s. I have vague memories of GSR maroon stock stabled at Foxrock Station and seeing Trams that were stored in Donnybrook Tram Depot whilst I was waiting to catch an A Class AEC bus to Foxrock, again I believe this would have been around 1945/6!

 

My apologies to Dhu Varren for being so rude to you - 'it is my railway and I will run what I like on it'. Must have been in one of my hissy fits that day. Anyway, I think I'll take your advice and run some maroon LMS/NCC stock on Old Blarney. Oh, the only maroon engine I have (at present) is an LMC Crab, No 13000, so you can tick-me-off again should you wish to do so!

 

All this can be seen at Falkirk Model Railway Show this November.

 

Regards,

 

David.

[Dhu Varren]

No apology necessary, it was all a tongue in cheek remark. Anyway, we still speak to each other from time to time. Last time was two weeks ago at Dundee, and hopefully the next time will be Aberdeen this weekend.

[leslie10646]

Hah, White, that sounds exactly how you would answer a query, even on your goods days!

 

That said, IT IS YOUR RAILWAY and you should run whatever you want.

 

I am unaware of any regular NCC workings to the GN. Obviously, individual wagons would have worked through and would have been seen all over the Island. Yer Man in Waterford is right that there would have been the odd van of pigeons from time to time. I don't need to tell YOU that the Enterprise was GNR stock, balanced by a train of CIE stock.

 

The UTA loaned locos to the GNR from time to time in the 1950s -a Class U2 "Carrickfergus Castle" ran in the Clones area for quite q while and I believe a Class WT or two were on loan in the early 1950s.

[jhb171achill]

As Leslie says, a U2 was used on Belfast - Cavan as an experiment for a while about 1949/50, just after the UTA took over. NCC wagons would have individually appeared here and there, and possibly individual ex-NCC carriages turned up on occasional UTA excursions into Dublin the early 60s.

 

I'm unaware of complete trains, and doubt it. But - as others have said - the layout owner determines what runs...... I have witnessed the "Flying Scotsman" in LNER green hauling CIE stock in such circumstances....

[leslie10646]

Maybe looking at things like rugby/football/GAA/pilgrimage specials might be an idea?

 

Good point, Mr MInister, but for the rugger, it was the GN from GV Street who ran the specials; likewlse when Down ("Up Down"!) were having their purple patch and taking trainloads down to Croke Park, that, too was GN. Did Antrim or Derry ever go South for big matches, that might have produced NCC coaches, but probably hauled by GN loco. As for the footie, that was Belfast-centric, so specials ran up the NCC to York Road (four ten coach specials when Derry City were in the Irish Cup Final in 1965); or into GV St. Back in the Bad Old Days, the two countries seldom played each other at footie and even if there was a special, that would have been GN.

 

David, you'll just have to fall back on your old line - "it's my line"! (Pun intended of course!).

[jhb171achill]

I remember seeing the odd UTA special and looking among a hotch-potch of GNR and NCC coaches to see if I could see a BCDR one! But they were all gone from traffic by then. The odd BNCR (obviously pre-NCC) one was about until the early 60's. You could tell them by the straight sides.

[minister_for_hardship]

What about when York Road got bombed during WW2, did anything go south then or did the GNR take care of anything that needed mending?

[jhb171achill]

I believe that Dundalk works built a series of wagons got the NCC after that, but nothing went south for storage.

 

I seem to remember reading somewhere that they started storing stock in places like Ballymena, Magherafelt, and even on the Draperstown branch. The NCC seemed to always keep itself very much to itself.....

[Hunslet 102]

David-not my era of knowledge,but I would very much doubt if an NCC train ever travelled south via the GNR.That said,I don't think you will need a tall story to allow the running of such a train on Old Blarney at Falkirk,in fact you will probably get a fair bit of interest from viewers with the LMS connection to the NCC.Looking forward to seeing Old Blarney again next month and don't worry I keep quiet about the maroon engine running in the deep south.

[jhb171achill]

The one NCC 4.4.0 that was used as an experiment on GVS to Cavan was by that time in UTA black! So it's probable that apart from the odd foray of an NCC loco to Aldergrove (from Antrim; this did happen, esp. during ww2), little or no maroon ever went GNR side.

 

As others have said, though, you're the boss on your layout!

 

You could have 85 "Merlin" on loan to the NCC and repainted maroon...... (jhb171 runs and dives for cover before someone issues a fatwa.....!!!!!!!!)

[leslie10646]

What about when York Road got bombed during WW2, did anything go south then or did the GNR take care of anything that needed mending?

 

The GNR repaired five NCC locos at Dundalk, one even being returned in full lined crimson lake (I can't find the reference in the books, so can't tell you which one - still looking).

 

The GSR and the GNR built 75 wagons each on salvaged ironwork.

 

The GNR also did some carriage maintenance after The Blitz.

 

Finally, three DNGR tank locos were loaned by the GNR to the NCC. Apart from shunting, their main base appears to have been Coleraine where they were occasionally used on Portrush branch trains!!

 

Of course, it was after the Blitz that the two Jinties were sent over by the parent LMS.

[colmflanagan]

Maybe looking at things like rugby/football/GAA/pilgrimage specials might be an idea?

 

Good point, Mr MInister, but for the rugger, it was the GN from GV Street who ran the specials; likewlse when Down ("Up Down"!) were having their purple patch and taking trainloads down to Croke Park, that, too was GN. Did Antrim or Derry ever go South for big matches, that might have produced NCC coaches, but probably hauled by GN loco. As for the footie, that was Belfast-centric, so specials ran up the NCC to York Road (four ten coach specials when Derry City were in the Irish Cup Final in 1965); or into GV St. Back in the Bad Old Days, the two countries seldom played each other at footie and even if there was a special, that would have been GN.

 

David, you'll just have to fall back on your old line - "it's my line"! (Pun intended of course!).

 

 

Well, indeed, gentlemen. I (nor anyone else I know) has yet shown me PROOF that LMS/NCC stock ran to Dublin or anywhere further south, which isn't the same as saying they never did. And the UTA might have had reasons for a "special" from north of Lisburn, containing ex NCC stock, to run to Dublin. This idea would pass what I call the "plausibility" effect, used by our NCC group on "Bleach Green " and "Killagan". A school excursion perhaps. I once was involved in running such a trip from Coleraine to Dublin though ours did use standard NIR and CIE stock. Apart from using railcar "B"/2509 from Connolly to Inchicore.

 

Any older readers of that excellent modelling magazine "Railway Modeller" will remember the column "Prototype for everything" which showed photos of incredible railway things in GB, so why not here too?

 

Of course, the UTA (NCC lines) Class 70's and on the very odd a occasion, MPDs, ran to Dublin but this a later period.

Colm

[leslie10646]

Right, I've got the photographic evidence of an NCC loco and coaches working through to Dublin in GNR days. I'll try and get permission for the photo to be displayed.

 

On 26 June 1949, No.93 (Class W Mogul) ran a special for The Pioneers from Magherafelt to Dublin. Charlie Friel has in his possession two photos of her at Dundalk! Quite an exploit, for she would have had to run round the Antrim branch tender first before reversal at Lisburn. In fact she may have been worked tender first the whole way from Magherafelt to there!

 

One of you guys, who is a member of the IRRS in Dublin, can take yourself into the Library, go to the "Holy of Holies" in the reference section where you'll find the working notices for the GNR for 1949 - there's sure to be a full timetable for the train there!

 

Funny none of we oldies thought of Pioneer specials - there were still lots of them in the 1960s.

[Old Blarney]

Leslie,

 

Thank you for all the information you have provided on this subject - and - less of we Oldies, please! To each of the contributors on this matter, an additional than you.

 

David.