Passenger train formations Steam era

[MikeO]

Some time ago there was discussion about train formations particularly relating to freight but I do not recall anything on passenger formations in the days of steam.

 

Were there any protocols as to how trains should be marshalled for both main line and branch line services. On page 51 (bottom of the first column) in Desmond Coakham's book Irish Broad Gauge Carriages, he cites the formation of the Enterprise from Dublin in 1948 as D5 Brake-First, C2 First, K24 buffet, 3 K15s and an L14. The K15s were all thirds and the L14 was a Brake-Third.

 

In a 7 coach train would 2 brake coaches be normal? In which coach would the Guard be located? I am assuming that there was only one Guard. I had thought that the brake vehicle (coach or wagon) would always be at the rear.

 

MikeO

[leslie10646]

Mike

 

A quick answer re The Enterprise.

 

A couple of photos in Tom Ferris's GN pictorial Book show a brake at each end, in one case of a SIX coach train and, yes, the guard would have based himself in the rear van.

 

As for "normal" trains - many photos in that book show a single brake on a train.

 

Remember that in former times, sundries traffic was a big earner for the railway and those vans were needed (not on the Enterprise, mind you) to carry parcels and other commodities.

 

My GNR Working Appendix isn't where I am, so I can't read up the "rules" or suggested practice - but when the train had a single brake van and it was at the front of the train, that's where the guard would have been.

 

JHB will give you a better answer than I, but you will get a pretty good idea of the make-up of trains by viewing the literature.

 

As an aside, I was at York Road depot one night when Foreman Billie Steenson was supervising the make-up of the 5.55pm express to Derry - a set of MPD railcars in those days. He listened to the make-up of the train suggested by the yard shunter and broke in to say, "No, put No.xx at the rear of the train, for it has a toilet, otherwise the toilets will all be at the front of the train". Happy days when the "men" knew their job through and through and DID consider the passenger?

 

Leslie

[GNRi1959]

I really am sorry that a dear friend Norman Johnston wasn't still with us. He knew carriages like nobody. We used to leave Omagh at 4am to catch steam excursions regularly. He carried a notebook to record engine and carriage numbers. His knowledge was transferred to publishing books in latter life.

[jhb171achill]

It'll come as good new to modellers to know that even in steam days, "Enterprise" formations could vary.

 

It was only with the introduction of the NIR Mk. 2 stock in 1970 and the "Supertrains" in 1972 that the one-type-of-coach fixed formation idea which is 100% the case these days, ever came in. Prior to that, passengaer train make up was based on one thing and one thing only - whatever was available, and most suitable. Unlike the severely retrograde situation today, where no two types of vehicles can even be coupled together, ALL railway vehicles had the same couplings, and no electrics were involved involving complicated and non-compatible jumper cables from vehicle to vehicle. thus, ANY vehicles could be coupled.

 

I have seen a photo of an AEC railcar set about to leave Harcourt Street for Bray, with a 1890s MGWR six-wheeler towed at the back. Centre cars for AEC railcars sets, even, could be ex-GNR, ex-GSWR and ex-NCC former steam stock, with minor modifications for gangways etc.

 

Right into the mid 1980s when the last wooden stock disappeared, a train make up on Dundalk to Bray, for example, might be BR Van, laminate type 1, Craven, Park Royal, laminate type 2, laminate dining car with shutters closed, Craven, Laminate brake standard genny. I have a photo somewhere of a Ballina-Limerick train about 1972 or so which has a 121 hauling a "Tin Van" followed by a laminate and a Park Royal.

 

I can remember being at Port Laoise about 1974-ish photographing the stub of the Mountmellick line down in the yard. The H & S police didn't exist, and at extreme threat to my life I wandered about a deserted yard freely, sans steel-capped boots, PTS or day glo knickers. The 1030 Heuston - Cork was heard arriving in the station, so I ran to gain a suitable place to take a photo as it left. It was 141 hauled, and behind it were some 10 bogie vehicles, with no more than two of the one type, a laminate brake at one end and a tin van at the other. In a mixed formation (which was absolutely the norm), there were examples of two or three types of laminates, a Craven or two, a wooden-framed dining car, and a Park Royal or two.

 

Go back ten years earlier and you have old wooden coaches too - almost all, if I remember correctly, which survived into the black'n'tan era being of GSWR origin. Bredins were still about too - the last time I saw or travelled in one myself (with a leaky roof!) was about 1975 or 6.

 

So mix away.

 

Conversely, a passenger train pre-1970 with a pristine rake of a single type of coach is actually not authentic at all 99% of the time! (If not 100!)

 

Regarding GOODS trains, it's 101.1% of the time!

[Mayner]

The numerous Irish Railway Pictorial books published in recent years by Ian Allen are probably the best reference source for steam hauled passenger trains. The Great Southern Railways and Great Northern albums are among the best as they cover both branch and main line trains over both railways systems.

 

While modellers and enthusiasts tend to be fixated with whether the coach was GSWR, a Bredin, Laminate, Park Royal or Craven the operating people were mainly interest in the class of passenger, number of seats and whether it was a corridor or non-corridor.

 

It made not a whit of difference to the operating department whether a 64 Seat Corridor 3rd was a GSWR,, MGWR, GSR or CIE coach once it was fit to run.

 

In addition to 3rd Class the majority of steam hauled trains included 1st Class accommodation, besides a van and 3rd class carriages a composite or 1st class car would be required even on a humble branch mixed train made up of one or two coaches.

[MikeO]

Thank you to all for your responses. Putting a brake coach at the end seems sensible to me so for my own trains I will continue the practice and of course mix and match. I can see where a second coach with limited capacity would be put into service to cater for a small number of additional first class passengers.

 

MikeO

[jhb171achill]

......While modellers and enthusiasts tend to be fixated with whether the coach was GSWR, a Bredin, Laminate, Park Royal or Craven the operating people were mainly interest in the class of passenger, number of seats and whether it was a corridor or non-corridor.

 

It made not a whit of difference to the operating department whether a 64 Seat Corridor 3rd was a GSWR,, MGWR, GSR or CIE coach once it was fit to run.

 

In addition to 3rd Class the majority of steam hauled trains included 1st Class accommodation, besides a van and 3rd class carriages a composite or 1st class car would be required even on a humble branch mixed train made up of one or two coaches.

 

Exactly!! Hence the variation.

[sayhall27]

Thanks again JHB.  Wonderful advice as always. Now I can run my cravens and laminate esk brake thirds in one train without worry. Just need a few non brake laminate in green or black and tan to make it even more variety.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, sayhall27 said:

Thanks again JHB.  Wonderful advice as always. Now I can run my cravens and laminate esk brake thirds in one train without worry. Just need a few non brake laminate in green or black and tan to make it even more variety.

I remember watching a train with a tin van at each end, and eleven bogies in between on the main line once, headed by a pair of 141s, I think. Within the consist were two or three Cravens, not all together, at least two varieties of Laminates, Park Royals and one other - I can't recall, but it was either an ex-GNR coach or a Bredin..... that was common, indeed, the norm.

Edited November 4, 2018 by jhb171achill

[Lambeg man]

Hi All,

As a new member I have come late to this discussion, so apologies for resurrecting it so late in the day. From my own research I can offer an explanation regarding the steam Enterprise formation. There was an ancient instruction from the time of the druids that ANY train going either way over the Wellington bank had to have a Brake Van at the front AND the rear of the train. Why, when continuous automatic braking systems came into being, this order was still on the GNR's company statute book in the 1940's, I do not know. Certainly the pre-war main line Mail set had a Brake/3rd at the north end and a Brake/2nd at the south end.

I may be wrong, but have I read somewhere that the Enterprise had two guards? When the service was first introduced in 1947, there was a heating/cooking stove fitted in the Brake/3rd to supplement the "at seat service" from the Buffet Car, a hostess being employed for this.

The GNR did publish Coaching Roster booklets, the one I have is for 1924. However, as JHB has stated, rostered formations could be added to as traffic requirements demanded.

One other note is that in 1956/57 as the most modern flush-sided GNR carriages were gradually withdrawn to Dundalk to be fitted as BUT trailers, older 1920's built wooden panelled coaches became regular vehicles in normal day to day steam operated intercity services.