LMS/NCC Ng brake vans

[Gavin Hamilton]

Hi all,

Interesting problem, I have been building an LMS/NCC type 23 3'gauge
brake van in 15mm scale but, it appears, I've found an insurmountable
problem... The model is almost complete but there are 'no known'
photographs of one (these ran on the Ballymoney to Ballycastle branch)
that show any lettering of any sort. I have been in contact with Charles
Friel but he doesn't know of any, so far the existing photographs show
how these evolved over the years but no numbering/lettering of any sort.
They were apparently painted LMS bauxite so I've used Precision Paints
LMS Bauxite and have detailed it as far as I can get, I've still to
paint the brake gear matt black - next few days work - so has anyone got
any suggestions about lettering/numbering? I know the numbers but no
idea about font etc?
I also saw, on I think TG4 catchup (not 100% sure as the original email went missing during a microsoft 'recovery') a TV program, which I didn't think to copy, which featured the Ballycastle branch starting with an NCC 0-6-0T and ended showing an S Class on the viaduct at Ballycastle - does anyone have a copy they can sell me or know what the program was called so I can purchase a copy?

Gavin

 

[jhb171achill]

I’ll do a diagram of the lettering later on and post it here.

The chassis would be the same bauxite colour. Any of these that were unfitted were grey all over; fitted grey or bauxite. 

Beautiful model by the way!

[Gavin Hamilton]

Excuse for the black frames, I've never seen any colour photographs of one, and the only Bauxite Liveried LMS (UK) brake van I've seen is black below the body, one of the photographs I got from Charles Friel shows that they were vacuum fitted and piped for steam heat 

[jhb171achill]

Your vac one will be bauxite, yes. 

Thr chassis colour was one of a few matters in which the NCC differed from the “narrow gauge” LMS across the pond, where just about everything had a black chassis. I suspect that the NCC followed the more Irish tradition of the BNCR.

As I gradually go through Senior’s pics, many of which I’m posting here by degrees, I’ll see if anything illustrates this. 

As you say, colour pics just ain’t gonna happen! While a tiny few exist (GNR in particular) in the late 1940s, both Ballycastle and Ballyclare were, of course, gone by 1950.

The NCC had two distinct lettering styles, depending on when..... they used a different font from the early 1940s. Which period is your model - pre or post 1940?

As an aside, the most obvious ways in which LMS (parent) and NCC liveries differed were lettering on tenders, and on carriages, many more secondary ones here than in Britain had no crests*, no lining or neither.
 

(* particularly in the last 5-10 years)

Edited May 3, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Gavin Hamilton]

I'm guessing late 1940's as the time period as these vans 'evolved' over the years, they seem to have started out with single sliding doors on each side but acquired double hinged doors later. Hopefully someone might find the Television program as film of the Ballycastle line is rare !

Regards

Gavin

Time to repaint the chassis

[Midland Man]

Have you made any other wagons from the NCC ad that one looks amazing.

[airfixfan]

There were 2 different types of Brake Van on the NCC 3ft lines. Class 23 as modelled were ex B&L and there is a photo of one on page 113 and details of this in the revised Ballycastle Railway book. The other type was Class 24 and one of these remained on the Ballyclare branch till closure in 1950. See page 119 of the revised edition of Mid Anrtim NG book for a photo.

[airfixfan]

Update there is a good colour photo of a Ballycastle Railway van on page 23 of the Young book on the UTA. See volume 5 of the Irish Railways DVD series which shows Ballycastle line and one of the brake Van's in B&W.

[Gavin Hamilton]

It's the only one I've made, I bought a couple of Boat Train Coaches, 352 & 318, (made by someone else) from John Campbell and these ran with one of these brake vans. This was built from a laser cut MDF kit, organised by John Campbell from his 'supplier of choice' as a body kit only and I had to source a chassis from another supplier, the brake detailing is modified L&B vacuum brake 4 wheel parts. I've ordered an S Class from John (who I spoke to on Wednesday) originally a live steam example but John advised me that given my lack of experience (true) of miniature, 15mm scale, live steam locos (I do drive fullsize ones), that electric would be more controllable and fitted with a sound card and radio control, where as live steam would need a track the size of Silverstone to run 'safely' Unlike the recently completed 'prototype' live steam he'd built!

Gavin 

Can you supply any details for the Young UTA book

Gavin

[airfixfan]

Published by Colourpoint books in 2006 called the UTA in Colour. There is a good photo of the other type of brake van on page 216 in J Boyd's book  Saga by Rail Ireland

 This book is highly recommended with details and many photos of the NCc NG lines in particular

 

[Gavin Hamilton]

47 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

Published by Colourpoint books in 2006 called the UTA in Colour. There is a good photo of the other type of brake van on page 216 in J Boyd's book  Saga by Rail Ireland

 This book is highly recommended with details and many photos of the NCc NG lines in particular

 

Thanks,

I've found and ordered a copy of the UTA in Colour book, the picture in the Boyd book is a different type of brake van (type 24) than the one I'm interested in

Regards

Gavin

[jhb171achill]

Now, I've done a bit of delving.

As airfixfan says, there were several types of vans between all three NCC narrow gauge lines (excluding Derry - Strabane). You had the Cushendall line with its unique bogie No. 333, you had the Ballycastle Railway Co., The B C R B R, and the B & L R. Then, on top of that, NCC alterations.

Most narrow gauge railways had no two guard's vans EXACTLY alike!

On the Ballycastle and remainder of the B & L in the post-1940 period, any guards vans used on passenger trains on the Ballycastle line were bauxite brown. Without knowing exactly what vans were actually in use as such, and which weren't, I can't give numbers. Other vans were grey, like all other goods stock, as were all on the Larne - Ballyclare line.

I will post below some illustrations which illustrate several other points too.

You mention markings. I have uncovered about half a dozen pictures of your type of model. You'll be pleased to hear that lettering is not something you need worry about, as all photos showing these vans in the brown livery have NO markings, and indeed all but one of any grey ones I've ever seen pictures of, have no markings either, other than the vehicle number on the ducket.

So the full correct livery is: body bauxite brown. Roof mid grey. Chassis almost certainly* brown, as ironwork on the body is brown too, as it was grey on grey wagons. Like black chassis, picked-out black ironwork wasn't the norm in Ireland. Couplings black. If you've an interior door open, interior a dark cream colour, as befitted interiors of NCC guard's vans in general. 

(* I qualify this, as main line bauxite wagons sometimes had black chassis if they were to be used in passenger trains, but NOT otherwise; for example, all of the so-called "brown vans", without exception, always had black chassis in any of their liveries - brown, later green, or maroon).

For your info, though, about NCC narrow gauge wagons in general. As I mentioned earlier, there were many subtle differences between the 4ft 8 1/2 LMS and the NCC in liveries. I mentioned that while on British carriages, crests were the norm on most, crests were NOT the norm on most here, and many including narrow gauge had none of the very nice lining.

If you look at wagons, while i am not an expert on LMS liveries, I believe that at quite an early stage they made a distinction between fitted wagons (bauxite brown) and everything else (grey); this being carried on into BR days. Here, the GNR started painting fitted wagons brown at some stage in the 1950s, and the UTA seems to have done so.

On the NCC, I can establish this. Everything on the ex-Ballymena & Larne section remained all-grey until the end. Passenger services, of course, were long gone by then. On the Ballycastle line, vans as mentioned above; all other stock apparently grey - by this stage, standard LMS wagon grey as used on LMS stock in Britain.

Lettering.... the BNCR used evenly spaced letters, quite small. Once the BNCR was eaten by the Midland Railway (of England), they got in large font M R, and under this in smaller letters, N C C. But the BNCR had a unique way of numberings wagons. Most companies either put a small cast plate on the chassis, usually with, but sometimes without, a painted number on the sides and in some companies, ends too. Others just painted numbers on.

But the BNCR used cast iron plates, with "B N C R" and the wagon number underneath, attached to the wagon side. Usually, whetever side the plate was on, the lettering was on the other, as per the very rough drawing I'm about to post. Once the MR NCC took over, they continued this tradition, with new wagons having the same plates but with MRNCC instead of BNCR on them. Once the LMS took over the MR, they did the same, and wagon plates had LMSNCC and the number in a more plain block font. Same on the 5'3"; the breakdown train had vehicles with such plates into the 1980s.

It would seem that in the mid to late 1940s, the "LMS" ended up being the same size lettering as the "NCC". Again, see illustrations below.

The attached pics are not from my own collection, but if anything turns up there I'll post that too. They are all from books.

 

[jhb171achill]

First, the earlier types of lettering.

Ironwork in the third photo appears darker; doubtless a common reason why some today see it as black - it isn’t, it’s rust! Emphasised by bleaching of painted woodwork.... 

Next, the later versions.

 

You can see the cast wagon plates. These were always black background, white lettering.

Now, the vans. The smaller ones are faded grey and on the B & L. The darker ones are your model, Ballycastle line, and bauxite. No markings at all are apparent, and no cast wagon number plates either!

I suspect there’s a faded painted number only on the ducket.

[jhb171achill]

Another NCC narrow gauge van, at Larne Harbour about 1946. Its grey, but shows the apparent lack of markings on vans, with just the number on the ducket.

 

And this was the sort of pattern on markings. Originally the “M R” or “L M S” was larger, but later “shrunk” to the smaller size, I’d say 6 inches high.

Excuse the rough drawing.

The pink on the diagram (if you could call it that!) represents the cast iron number plate - white letters on black background, which you can see on wagons in the photos above - not day-glo pink!

[Gavin Hamilton]

The 1946 Larne picture is one I've never seen before, but it appears to be in 'as built' condition, those on the Ballycastle line (numbers 5325/5326) seem to have evolved to have two hinged doors on either side at a later stage in evolution, presumably work carried out locally so it looks like a faded black/brown number on the ducket may have to suffice. If a better scan could be found it might be possible to work out the number, I think it looks something close to 5313 but given that the records were lost in the 1941 blitz I suspect the answer will never be known. A quick glance through 'The Mid Antrim Narrow Gauge shows that 5313 was renumbered from 313 in Dec 1934 and withdrawn in 1954

Gavin

Edited May 3, 2020 by Gavin Hamilton
further info

[jhb171achill]

Van 5310 in in the Malahide Fry collection (once the place reopens!).

[jhb171achill]

On the subject of the NCC narrow gauge, would’nt it be amazing to see these run again!

 

[Gavin Hamilton]

10 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

On the subject of the NCC narrow gauge, would’nt it be amazing to see these run again!

 

Yes, but as long as no one replicates 110! Part of 43 is still active (Chimney is on 'Nancy' on the Cavan & Leitrim), one of 43's number plates is on the wall at Cultra. If a replica was built it should fit on the IOM Probable cost of this exercise c£500,000. BTW 42 was reliveried to UTA markings in Larne shed after the line to Ballyclare papermill was closed!

Regards

Gavin

P.S. my 15mm scale model is on order, though delivery date isn't set in stone

Edited May 4, 2020 by Gavin Hamilton
cost est wrong

[jhb171achill]

15mm scale model, Gavin?

Do tell more!

[Gavin Hamilton]

On 5/3/2020 at 10:59 PM, jhb171achill said:

15mm scale model, Gavin?

Do tell more!

Gauge 1, Electric, Soundcard fitted, Radio controlled, being built by John Campbell, delivery date uncertain owing to the Lockdown currently being experienced, was originally going to be steam propelled but going for electric as this will be more controllable and I have no experience of steam powered small scale locomotives though I do hold a steam drivers 'licence' for standard gauge locomotives

Gavin

Edited May 7, 2020 by Gavin Hamilton
spelling

[airfixfan]

Gavin in regards to Boyd book photos of the other type and was just trying to be helpful. After 1940 the NCC NG had 2 different types of Brake van thought photo on.page 216 Boyd and DVD images of your van might help?

[Gavin Hamilton]

10 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

Gavin in regards to Boyd book photos of the other type and was just trying to be helpful. After 1940 the NCC NG had 2 different types of Brake van thought photo on.page 216 Boyd and DVD images of your van might help?

No problem - it is faced by everyone trying to research long closed lines where the historical records have 'vanished' (sounds better than destroyed by fire caused by Luftwaffe blitz on Belfast), now I wish I could find that TG4 program but I cannot recall the title and google search is less than helpful

Gavin

[Gavin Hamilton]

The 15mm scale Ballycastle line train completed and waiting for the S class to arrive, I need a bigger table Still, assuming I can find the correct paint, a few tweeks to the vacuum and steam heat pipes on the van.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Gavin Hamilton
more detail

[Galteemore]

Cracking stuff - the old Larne boat train coaches? Would have loved a trip over Ballyboley Hill in those!!

[Gavin Hamilton]

2 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Cracking stuff - the old Larne boat train coaches? Would have loved a trip over Ballyboley Hill in those!!

Yes, beyond my abilities to build but perfect for a train hauled by an S  class, I'm not sure who originally built them but I purchased them (pre owned/second hand) from John Campbell. I now need proper boxes to carry them in + the loco when it eventually arrives

Gavin

 

[Midland Man]

The derail is amazing @Gavin Hamilton

What engines are you going to build and is a garden railway?

[Gavin Hamilton]

1 minute ago, Midland Man said:

The derail is amazing @Gavin Hamilton

What engines are you going to build and is a garden railway?

Building an appropriate loco is probably beyond my abilities (I did build, from a kit, an HO scale South African Railways 19D 4-8-2 many years ago), so I've ordered a 15mm scale (gauge 1) S class from John Campbell (Electric power, sound card fitted, Radio control) we (John & I) discussed this last week and agreed that Live steam was not the route to go. I have a very small garden but a local Railway Society has a Garden Railway track that I hope to use (I'm an active member with a Steam Loco 'driving licence') so I hope to run it there and have already had an invite to run it at another track that a friend runs his train at

Gavin

[jhb171achill]

Looking great, Gavin! Love the corridor coaches too!

[airfixfan]

You can visit LMS NCC coach 58 at the Donegal Railway Heritage Centre when it reopens after the lockdown?

[Patrick Davey]

Hi Gavin, any update to the S class model?  Cheers