Railway track chairs

[Wexford70]

Would anyone have information on:

1) the development of the design of railway chairs

2) Names of suppliers of these over the decades (were most bought from the UK?)

Thanks 

Oops sorry meant to post in general chat, can moderators please move?

Edited November 15, 2020 by Wexford70

[minister_for_hardship]

Common foundry marks are:

P&P Pease & Partners Darlington 

WP&Co Wilsons, Pease & Co Middlesbrough 

HW&Co Henry Williams & Co Glasgow

AFCoLd Anderston Foundry Co Glasgow and Middlesbrough 

GKN Guest, Keen & Nettlefolds Birmingham 

 

I don't know if there was a native chair casting industry. Due to the volumes required I doubt it.

Edited November 15, 2020 by minister_for_hardship

[Wexford70]

24 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Common foundry marks are:

P&P Pease & Partners Darlington 

WP&Co Wilsons, Pease & Co Middlesbrough 

HW&Co Henry Williams & Co Glasgow

AFCoLd Anderston Foundry Co Glasgow and Middlesbrough 

GKN Guest, Keen & Nettlefolds Birmingham 

 

I don't know if there was a native chair casting industry. Due to the volumes required I doubt it.

Very helpful.

Thank you.

[minister_for_hardship]

I do have a very early unmarked chair recovered a number of years ago in a disused tunnel, and appears to be intended for double headed rail, a short lived type.

Unlike bullhead rail, double headed was symmetrical and designed to be flipped over when one surface wore down. The downside was it made for a very rough road.

Edited November 15, 2020 by minister_for_hardship

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Common foundry marks are:

P&P Pease & Partners Darlington 

WP&Co Wilsons, Pease & Co Middlesbrough 

HW&Co Henry Williams & Co Glasgow

AFCoLd Anderston Foundry Co Glasgow and Middlesbrough 

GKN Guest, Keen & Nettlefolds Birmingham 

 

I don't know if there was a native chair casting industry. Due to the volumes required I doubt it.

There was. Dundalk Works cast them, as did York Road for the NCC and, of course, Inchicore. York Road MAY have made some for the County Donegal, but I have no evidence of this.

[airfixfan]

Must follow the CDR one up soon.

[Fangbolt]

Railway chairs were cast in grey iron. In Ireland there were chairs with 2 holes, 3 holes and 4 holes.

In plain track there were sometimes two types of chair used, the intermediate or common chair and the joint chair. Sometimes, the joint chairs wre handed e.g., Right hand and left hand. Joint chairs were always heavier than common chairs.

Nearly all chairs have a rectangular base with rounded corners except for a CS1 type which was used on BH concrete sleepers and had an elliptical base.

Common chairs weigh about 44 lbs and joint chairs are a bit heavier.

Each railway had its own unique design of chair but most had the rails fixed by inserting a key on the outside of guage. The GNR(I) had some inside keyed track.

The holes in the chairs were parallel except for those designed to take ferrules which had a tapered hole.

CIÉ had inherited the following types of chair.

The list is not exhaustive!

DSE 3 hole

DSE 4 Hole

GSWR A and AJ

GSWR B and BJ

GSWR C and CJ

GSWR D

SRE / GNR(I) S1

GNR(I) OS1

SRE / GNR(I) S1J

All of the chairs inclined the rails at 1:20 into guage.

[Fangbolt]

The CI railway chair in the picture is a 3 hole DW&WR chair and is therefor quite old.

In service railway chair could be broken by severe wheel flats of other impact loads.

The two upstands on a railway chair are / were known in CIÉ as the jaw (the part where the rail rested against), and the gub (the part where the key rested against). Keys were usually tapered and made of wood or steel.  Keeping keys tight in service was labour intensive. In later years a new type of steel key was introduced called a Panlock which was addressed to problem of loosening or falling out. Panlock keys, because of their dimensions were problematic at joints because of the fishplates. 

BH (Bull Head) track is obsolescent / obsolete in IÉ. Some may still exist in sidings or closed lines.

[Dun Aucht]

NCC Practice. The BNCR used a pattern of two bolt chair. The RPSI Had some at Whitehead over 30 years ago, but they were useless for BS90 bullhead rail.

The MRNCC used a three bolt chair known by the PW men as the 'Bullnose' as it resembled a Morris radiator in shape  and was designed for BXTD 83lb per yard rail. They were locally cast in Belfast. The LMSNCC developed a three bolt chair of a different shape which was called 'The smoothing Iron' by the PW men. Again it was a BXTD for 85lb per yard rail and was cast by Harland & Wolff. The earlier MR chairs worked with the heavier 85lb rails. Rail sleepers were 9 foot in length. Wartime supplied sleepers were only 8' 6". The chairs supplied to the NCC were LNER S1 pattern chairs for 90lb per yard rail.

GNR(I) Practice. The GNR(I) had used cast chairs which were keyed inside the five foot. The chairs at the end of the track panel had an apex which pointed to the rail joint. These were for use with wooden sleepers and were cast in the works at Dundalk. They later used a four bolt S1 pattern chair for use with 90lb per yard rail with wooden sleepers. The GNR(I) was a pioneer in using concrete sleepers.

The UTA mixed materials from the GNR(I) and the NCC on the remaining lines, as they used recovered materials for track repairs. During the time the line from Bleach Green to Antrim was closed, I interviewed the late Davy McClean retired PW Inspector and we went to the closed line to look at track panels. There were a mixture of chairs even within a track panel. The earlier pattern GNR(I) chairs noted above were in the former GNR(I) Bay Platform at Antrim circa 1987. They had gone within 12 months.

THE NCC Appendix to the working Time Table list the maximum loading of wagons and coaches for each of the locomotive power classifications for the Bleach Green incline.

Earlier rail keys were wood. They were replaced by the sprung metal type which tended to remain in situ for longer, before starting to move. Each PW length was walked daily by one member of the gang, checking the rail keys, rail joints and checking for broken rails. The NCC Director's Minute Books recorded any record of any broken rails.

 

[seagoebox]

Mainly for Wexford 70...... on the subject of "Chairs"

A few pages from "Railway Construction 1898" by WH Mills who was engineer in Chief of the GNR(I)

[Horsetan]

On 4/4/2022 at 1:55 AM, Dun Aucht said:

..... The LMSNCC developed a three bolt chair of a different shape which was called 'The smoothing Iron' by the PW men. ...... Rail sleepers were 9 foot in length. Wartime supplied sleepers were only 8' 6". .....

I wonder what the GSR / CIE standard sleeper dimension was? 8ft 6in or 9ft?

[jhb171achill]

I think 9ft was standard throughout Ireland.

[David Holman]

And we all thought it was safe to go in the water!

A very interesting topic and utterly horrendous for anyone fickle enough to want everything right. RTR track very unlikely to be correct unless following modern practice, never mind the gauge. Just as well therefore that our eyes rarely look that closely at such things, though on a small layout, it might make a difference.

 C&L have produced a few variations of chairs for several years now - mainly two or three bolt, I think. They also do slide chairs for pointwork and offer the chance to make sure the oak 'keys' are facing the right way - on double track trains should be pushing them into the chairs, while on single track they need to be mixed.

 Amazing the lengths we might go to...

[Horsetan]

3 hours ago, David Holman said:

....make sure the oak 'keys' are facing the right way - on double track trains should be pushing them into the chairs, while on single track they need to be mixed....

I think the rule is that the key leads the direction of travel, so it's inserted ahead of the chair for forward movement; as the engine moves, it effectively claws the rail and key back into the chair.

[Horsetan]

Here's a GSWR 4-bolt chair. Original photo on Brian Solomon's website

[jhb171achill]

This one is a rare beast indeed!

It’s ex Dublin, Wicklow & Wexford Railway, cast in the 1890s.

Most companies had their own designs - some (e.g. the NCC ones with their curved ends) of an extremely unusual pattern.

[irishrailways52]

hears a few I found in a skip. I'm nearly sertan they where cast in inchacore. they where in use on the Navan to kingscourt line and had there last train run over them in 2003. they where ripped up in 2022 to make way for the greenway. there are still some in use on the Navan to drohida line up until last year and will lightly continue to see some permanent way traffic for the next few years. imagine. the oldest one on the line to Navan that i found was from 1902. still in use today.

[jhb171achill]

45 minutes ago, irishrailways52 said:

hears a few I found in a skip. I'm nearly sertan they where cast in inchacore. they where in use on the Navan to kingscourt line and had there last train run over them in 2003. they where ripped up in 2022 to make way for the greenway. there are still some in use on the Navan to drohida line up until last year and will lightly continue to see some permanent way traffic for the next few years. imagine. the oldest one on the line to Navan that i found was from 1902. still in use today.

The bottom one, dated 1917, is an Inchicore product all right - see "G S & W R" on it. However, the majority on that line were likely to be ex-GNR - thus cast in Dundalk Works. I think the top picture is a GNR one.

[minister_for_hardship]

GS&WR, D&SER, GNR(I) and GSR.

CIE chair with Gaelic font.

MGWR soleplate and washers compared with GN chair. (Both found lying by the newly laid Navan greenway)

Edited July 3 by minister_for_hardship

[minister_for_hardship]

Different sort of GNR chair.