Mol_PMB

Photos from 1958 and 1959 showing these vehicles are as follows: This IRRS photo at Inchicore dated November 1958 shows just part of the bodyside - who parked that kettle in the way? https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53506816536/ There's a photo of another wedgehead car at Harcourt Street in December 1958, this is in 'Rails around Dublin' (Murray) p59 2664 is seen at Enniscorthy in August 1959, in 'Railways in Ireland part 3: DSE/MGW' (Bairstow) p26, and the same car is also seen at Wexford North on p28 of the same book. An undated photo of 2661 in original condition at Newcastle West can also be found in 2 books: 'The Waterford, Limerick & Western Railway' (Shepherd) p29 and 'Railways in Ireland part 4: GS&W' (Bairstow) p45. Considering the railcar's condition, this photo is likely to be late 1950s. All the photos in the 1957-1959 period show the headlights in the low position just above the buffers. Later, they were raised. [The AEC / Park Royal railcars also had several different headlight configurations over their life.] You may have noticed that this thread is a bit short of photos actually linked in the thread. Sorry! There will be some later...

I have found myself going down a rabbithole looking for photos of these in the early years, while they still retained their driving cabs. I've got a fair number now, so I thought I would share the list of references. In this post I'll give a description and some 1957 photo references. The six railcars 2660 to 2665 were built at Inchicore and introduced to service in 1957. 2660-2662 are recorded as being completed in February, 2663 in March and the remaining two in April 1957. As with the AEC / Park Royal built cars, they had 12 first class seats, 32 second class, a toilet and a guard's van. Even-numbered cars had a steam heat boiler in the guard's van. The layout of the accommodation was the same as the AEC / Park Royal built cars. Visually they were rather different: Most obviously, the cab front was an angular wedge-shape rather than the smoothly rounded shape of the main fleet. The carbody was slightly taller and had flatter sides (though there was still a small curve in the lower bodyside). The windows had rounded corners, being similar to those fitted to the Inchicore-built carriages. The arrangement of vents on the roof was different, and with a smaller type of vent. They entered traffic in a dark green livery, with no lining. Class designations 1, 2 and GUARD were on the appropriate doors. Bogies were silver, and I think the roof was black. The toilet window was white. The clearest photo I've found in original condition shows 2664, brand new at Inchicore in 1957. This is in 'Bulleid and the Turf Burner' (Shepherd) p73. Another good photo shows 2663 at Cork Glanmire Road on 14th July 1957. This is in 'Irish Railways 40 Years of Change' (Boocock) p23 There is one IRRS photo dated 5th June 1957, at Inchicore, which shows 2664: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511297171/ The only colour photo I've found in original condition shows an unidentified car at Kingsbridge in 1957, viewed from the other side compared to the three above. This is in 'Irish Railways in Colour' (Ferris) vol.1 p87 Finally for 1957, there is a photo of an unidentified car in a train at Clonakilty Junction. This appears in 'Cork Bandon & South Coast Railway' (Shepherd) p38 and 'The Cork, Bandon and South Coast Railway' Vol.3 (Creedon) p67

The 60 AEC / Park Royal railcars were supplied to CIE in 1952-1953. At the same time that Inchicore were busy building carriages to run with them. I know that some outsourced rolling stock was supplied complete and painted, whilst others were supplied complete but just in primer for Inchicore to paint. Some other orders had the first few supplied complete and the rest were supplied as 'kits' which were assembled and painted at Inchicore. What happened with the AEC railcars? Were they built and painted by AEC / Park Royal in the UK and shipped complete? Or did Inchicore contribute to the assembly and/or painting?

Continuing the topic of 1950s liveries, I stumbled across this post which is worth a read: This re-opens the prospect of multiple shades of green (not just light and dark) as well as describing different lining styles. I've been doing some more research on this myself recently based on photographs, and it might be interesting to try and cross-reference the statements in the above linked post with what appears in photos. However, I'm minded to wait until the old IRRS journals become available online, so that I can check back to the original news items and studies. Most photos from the early and mid 1950s are monochrome, though colour becomes more common in the late 1950s.

I'll send you a PM.

This looks like a nice plan with plenty of scope for some varied scenery. Somewhere to run your NIR stock? The boards will provide a generous size for the layout - I like the idea of using the wider boards to make the most of the scenery where hopefully you won't have to reach over too often. I look forward to seeing it develop!

One Heating & Luggage Van kit, plus one Luggage Van Kit, please.

I'm pleased to say that I now have official permission to measure and photograph the van at Cultra, so in late August I'll gather that data and then prepare a scale drawing. Thanks to the staff at Cultra for taking the time to respond to my request and grant permission.

Interesting, thanks for the info. Here's an old pic of mine on the one occasion I made it to Shane's Castle: The only time I've been to Giant's Causeway was before the present railway existed (but long after the tramway closed). Is the present railway worth a visit?

Wow, quick and quality work! I look forward to seeing this develop and hopefully it will inspire me to get on with some of my own projects. I've got a set of those universal rods in my stash but haven't tried using them yet, so it's good to see your approach to it.

Announced April 2023 for delivery Q2 2024, they’re not yet so far behind as some projects! It would be nice to have an update but I appreciate the AS/IRM team have a lot going on at present. Somehow I’ve ended up with 5 on order, 3 paid for months ago. Looking forward to them, and I have some potential conversions in mind too. Do they ever sell ‘seconds’ or ‘misshapes’? Maybe that’s just for biscuits.

That’s not too bad - you can still see the rails! It’s when the train leaves a bow-wave that it’s properly flooded. I have once been on a DMU that braved 6 inches of floodwater above the rails and left a bow wave. It was all for nothing, the track dropped further and when the driver could see the platform surface was underwater at the next station, he stopped before he got completely stranded and went back to dry land!

Those 6-wheelers look excellent! Any chance of a photo of the underside - how did you arrange any sideplay/steering on the wheelsets?

Hopefully it’s not the Boyne Bridge that’s flooded!

I can't find the good photo now (I'm at work) but this is one of the brake standard conversions, note the headlight on the end: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252109222/

No, they were powered. As far as I am aware there were two types of driving trailer converted for use with the AEC railcars - at least one Park Royal on the W&T section, and two of the early 1950s CIE-built brake standards. Good photos of both types exist.

80 Class were Mk2s of course, indeed some had trailer cars from the original Enterprise Mk2 fleet. Before the 3000s were delivered they would have been first choice for a substitution on the Enterprise, but I wonder when that last happened?

It couldn't have been much later than 2007 as the Cravens and Mk2s were withdrawn around then.

Interesting - thanks for sharing some photos of the budget paint job - ideal for the modeller without a lining pen! They all appear to be dark green, and (where class designations are carried) third class rather than second class. In C.Creedon's book on the CBSCR (volume 3) there are several references to carriages being sent to Rocksavage for painting in the mid-1950s, including two of those converted into driving trailers for the AEC railcars. I thought that was interesting because I've not seen a photo of a driving trailer in use on the CBSCR, maybe they just visited for the paint job? In which case, I wonder if Rocksavage managed to match the standards of Inchicore! I'm sure I found some photos of these driving trailers converted from CIE-built brake standards somewhere, but I seem to have mislaid my reference. Will have to look again...

RPSI steam Enterprise, or the regular version?

They seem to be multiplying! Is that disembodied tail a fifth one?

I'm still on a learning curve with Templot - I can manage a crossover on straight track, or a simple turnout on a curve, but I haven't mastered Y-points (contrary flexure turnouts) yet.

The statement might have been true before BnM’s expansion in the 1940s/1950s. In the 1920s, the railway system used to build Ardnacrusha was probably bigger too.

Nice. I see that your work is being inspected by the supervisor.

An update on the classes and designations after a bit of searching online and in the library. I think that in southern Ireland the 3-class system was dropped before the formation of CIE, so that in 1945 there was just first and third. Coaches inherited by CIE and repainted into the more complex dark green livery with waist and cantrail lining ought to have class designations on all doors, reading 1 or 3. Also these normally had snails. There were still plenty of older coaches in this livery around in the mid-1950s. Some inherited coaches were painted into a simplified unlined dark green livery, they may or may not have had class designations and snails. The earlier coaches built by CIE in 1951/1952 were dark green, no lining, no snail, with a 1 on first class doors, but no other class designations. Those built in 1953/1954 were the same but with a narrow line at the waist, no snail, with a 1 on first class doors, but no other class designations. The AEC railcars were delivered in this scheme but did have third class 3 designations on the doors as well as first class 1. Carriages built in 1954/1955 on the triangulated underframe with commonwealth bogies (including Park Royals) were the same livery as the 1953/1954 coaches, but had silver bogies and underframes. Third Class was redesignated Second Class on 3rd June 1956, the same date as in the UK. Some coaches may have been outshopped with 2 designations on the doors a little in advance of the official changeover, this photo is dated 2 weeks prior: AEC railcar 2646 seen here only a few days after the class redesignation already carries 2 numerals: Coaches weren't all repainted overnight, and this interesting photo dated September 1956 shows the first vehicle with 1 and 2 on the doors. Note that the 1s have been there a while and are weathered, whereas the 2s are freshly added: Meanwhile the second vehicle is still in the 1940s livery with 1s and 3s on the doors (and snails). Same date in September 1956, note the Park Royals on the right, one of which has received a 2 but the other hasn't: So it looks like some carriages had the 2s added to their existing paint job, and therefore 2s could be seen on dark green coaches: So, regardless of the exact year in the 1950s you're modelling, I think your Bredin composite with the waist and cantrail lines needs some 1 and 3 class numerals and some snails. Your open standard can needs a thin waist line but doesn't need class numerals or snails. This photo is cropped from page 4 of Keith Pirt Colour Portfolio (an excellent album - highly recommended) It dates from 1961, so a later period, but I think it shows most clearly the contrast in green liveries on Park Royals. The leading coach is freshly-painted light green with black ends, 2 class designations on the doors. Note that the window frames have been painted green. The second coach is the same, but a bit weathered. The fourth coach is is much darker green, despite being at the same angle to the sun and not in shade - we can see the sunlight glinting off the opening toplights of the windows. They would glint, because when the Park Royals entered service in dark green these toplights were left unpainted, as seen in the two of Ernie's photos immediately above this one, and also shown in the brand new photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53506776188 When new they also had dark green ends, again the same three photos prove this. So for the Park Royals, I am convinced that the following variants existed in the green period: Dark green on sides and ends, unpainted aluminium window toplights. Eau-de-nil waist line. No class designation on doors. Silver underframe and bogies (got dirty quickly). Dark green on sides and ends, unpainted aluminium window toplights. Eau-de-nil waist line. 2 class designation added on doors. Silver underframe and bogies (got dirty quickly). Light green on sides including window toplights. Eau-de-nil waist line. 2 class designation on doors. Black ends with dimension plates picked out in red. Underframe and bogies may have been painted black or just left dirty. There may have been other variants as well. At some stage in the late 1950s the doors were modified which might create further variants. It is not clear from the Accurascale website which shade(s) of green they are using. The only green decorated sample I've seen is light green with black ends, which is in accordance with the first 2 coaches in the image above except it is lacking the 2 class designations on the doors. Are the model coaches with green ends a darker shade? We shall see...