Mol_PMB

A little more progress with the container train. I decided to have a go at one of @leslie10646's container flats, which represent the 27101 series 20' flats. I wasn't sure how easy it would be to build this for 21mm gauge, but it wasn't too hard. I mostly used a piercing saw with a coarse blade to remove material from the floor and the back of the W-iron: I then tidied up with a file. The tip of the pin-point bearing hole was still visible to provide a witness mark for re-drilling the hole deeper. For now I've just deepened the hole in the resin, but I might possible drill out deeper and put in a brass bearing. After that, the rest of the model went together fairly easily. A few minor tweaks needed to get the brake gear to line up with the broad gauge wheels, but nothing major. I still need to add buffer heads and a paint job, hopefully later in the week. In the meantime, I have the beginnings of a container train, which will hopefully grow with a couple more 4-wheelers at least. I haven't yet found any of the IRM 42' bogie wagons available for sale. The C=Rail containers are very nice, but I may give them a bit of light weathering in due course. Merry Christmas all... Mol

I hope you can have a relaxing lie-in tomorrow morning then! Another wonderful selection of photos - many thanks. The Connolly shot is interesting for the variety of traction and the variety of shades of orange - proof that they didn't always match and that variations in paint colour, fading and weathering could give substantial differences even on fairly clean locos and carriages. Before my time period, didn't the GNR 4-4-0s look wonderful in blue, whether they were big or small ones!

I had a look for some more info on Greenore Ferry Services - I think Greenore was the first port in Ireland to handle containers in 1963. As well as early ISO containers they also handled a lot of Lancashire Flats. The following are from the Trucknet website which also has some reminiscences about GFS and some of the other small Irish Sea operators: https://www.trucknetuk.com/t/lancashire-flats/202588/2

This drawing in my collection is the painting and lettering diagram for the Bell containers built at BREL Derby in 1973, by which time the familiar Bell livery of purple and blue had been introduced. These were 20'x8'x8'6" steel boxes and the paint specification gives the main colour as Petunia Purple, except a blue panel on each side. So these would have had purple tops.

I mentioned Cawoods in my previous post. This IRRS Archive photo on Flickr shows Cawoods containers on a train at Dundalk: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510397787 Here's one of the early B+I ISO containers which I photographed at Blackwater BnM last year: One of CIE's pre-ISO containers survives at Dromod C&L and I have several photos of that; I was wondering about a separate thread on them, as I have more Jane's scans to do for this thread.

There’s a product called black superglue which contains a bit of rubber, and I have seen it recommended for this sort of thing. As well as being black rather than leaving a white haze, it is also slightly flexible. Might be worth a try? Alternatively ‘glue and glaze’ is clear, not so strong or fast-setting, but more forgiving.

Of course the other wheel arrangement similar to the carriage shown is the Western Australian Metro-Vick, the A Class’s elder brothers. They were 2-Do-2. From personal experience, the ride through pointwork was quite alarming, and the interior of the Crossley engine room was almost entirely covered in black oil.

London Underground had some locos with 4 bogies. ESL 107 is preserved at Acton, but there used to be several of them. They were used for de-icing the conductor rails in winter. 3 bogies is much more common, there are plenty of Bo-Bo-Bos in the Alps but they can also be found in the Channel Tunnel.

Merry Christmas to all on the forum, and especially to the manufacturers who make such wonderful kits and models of Irish prototypes for us. I hope you all have a restful break over the Christmas period. Here's a seasonal photo I took on my recent holiday, and almost the only one that didn't feature a train. I'm afraid they're not quite reindeer either, you'll have to make do with a pair of Ibex (Ibexes? Ibices?)

I must confess that modelling progress has been slow recently, partly because of a minor arm injury (that has now healed) which made me ham-fisted and painful to do anything. There was also the much more pleasant distraction of a week abroad photographing trains. Anyway, for those reasons, and because I've incorporated various modifications to the model to suit my prototype, completion of the GNR brake van has dragged on a bit, but I think I'm finally there with the build and it's had a coat of etch primer. The next stage is to try and reproduce the awful paint job that NIR put on it, with the rust showing through the thin grey paint. This photo from Jonathan Allen on Flickr, and a few others of his, have been the basis of my modifications: My intention is that this will form part of a short works train for my IRM maroon Hunslet, when it arrives. A couple of kit-bashed Courtaulds wagons and three of @leslie10646's spoil wagons (converted to ballast hoppers) are also part of that plan. When I last modelled Irish in 4mm scale about 30 years ago, I attempted to build this kit, and made a right hash of it because I just didn't have the skills, experience or quality tools to make a good job of it. Starting again 30 years later it's still quite a challenging kit but I think it's worth the effort. Hopefully I've done it and @Weshty justice. While I've got the soldering iron out, I've made a start on another etched kit, this time from @Mayner. This is one of three, and will become 25436 series container flats. I'll try to make them all a bit different, for example one will have plain bearings and the other two will have roller bearings. So far it's going together well:

Off-topic perhaps for this thread, but this is the sort of thing I'm mulling over for a shunting layout, part of the Limerick wagon works and a tiny bit of the stabling point. Time period would be a bit flexible, mid 1970s to mid 1980s. The available space for the board is shown by the orange rectangle, 1750mm long and 450mm wide. I can fit in the basic arrangement of the yard without much compression, using 1000mm minimum radius curves: The main problem is that the headshunt top right is a bit short for shunting the long siding with a mainline diesel loco, though it wouldn't be so bad with G611 or E428, each of which lived here at one stage. There might be scope for a short headshunt extension but not the full width board; if I did that then I might actually shift the board footprint left a bit to include more of the original WLWR shed. Originally I had thought of viewing the layout from the bottom of the plan, with (at least some of) the six through lines behind, then the retaining wall and the trees as the backscene. But it just becomes way too wide for my space if I do that. So now I'm thinking of viewing from the top of the plan, with the wagon works forming the main backdrop. The two isolated sidings on the right wouldn't be functional but could display some of my growing collection of wagons. Left-hand end of the layout, photographed by Tarkaman in 1988: Looking from the hypothetical extended headshunt, photo by Ernie in 2005: Hmm, lots to think about but I'm afraid it's not a BLT!

Limerick station itself is nice and compact, though the Roxboro' Road bridge is further away than you think, and there a 6 parallel tracks running under that which makes for a complex throat. I'm looking quite seriously at a shunting layout representing a small part of the wagon works and loco stabling sidings, which I think is well bounded by buildings and scenery and should work with a bit of compression.

Not a green H van, but a green horsebox (also with black ends and underframe), in a freight train from a 1964 film. Incidentally the train had no fewer than 4 brake vans on the back! Screenshot showing the horsebox: Link to the whole clip: This photo of Ernie's also appears to show three horseboxes in the same green livery, with the large XP markings seen on the one in the film clip (that were not applied to green H vans): But by no means all horseboxes or other passenger-rated vans were painted green, again here are a couple of Ernie's photos showing grey ones in green trains:

Meanwhile, north of the border Belfast has appeared in a big way, with a long list of services to the GB mainland and further afield. I won't repeat a lot of the ports information which didn't change so much, but Warrenpoint appears in the list with a service to Garston, and the entry for Garston shows some of the Irish Sea Ferries and Cawoods operations. Of course, those containers arriving in Northern Ireland weren't so likely to end up on a train. Bell was being reorganised and growing, note that in 1971 their containers were unpainted aluminium alloy, none of the blue and purple that came later. Some of them just said 'Bell' others 'Bell Line' or 'Bell Ferry'. Meanwhile B+I was making a big deal of their new Dublin terminal. Note that this includes a listing of their container fleet at the time: There were still plenty of smaller operators, some examples here:

I don't have the second edition of Jane's, but I do have the thired, 1970-71 edition. By this time, the Irish entry had developed from 1.5 pages to 6, with more ports getting in on the act. CIE was also making more of its container services and featured a hard-hitting full page advert too. While there are plenty of ISO containers in the photos, there are also older types and some earlier livery schemes from B+I and Ulster Ferry visible. The photo at Tivoli shows a Greenore Ferry Service container being lifted. Note that Manchester Liners (a personal favourite of mine) gets a mention in Dublin, their containers certainly ended up on CIE liner trains. More to come...

Finally from 1968, details of the shipping lines that carried container traffic to and from Ireland. Some of these will be more familiar than others. This view of the ship 'Rolf' in 1969 shows what many of these Irish Sea intermodal vessels were like at the time. Small coasters adapted to carry a few containers, and in this case although there are a few ISO boxes it's mostly older container types and Lancashire Flats. In this photo the vessel is being operated by B+I and is carrying containers or flats belonging to CIE, Irish Ferryways, Containerway, Roadferry and others. (scanned from the book 'Looking back at Containerships' by Andrew Wiltshire, and the photo credited to Danny Lynch)

Ah well they can be bought on the internet in a range of colours!

I've long been interested in intermodal traffic and containers, particularly the early years of the ISO container in the 1960s and early 1970s. I have a fair bit of literature on the subject including several early editions of 'Jane's Freight Containers.' I know there are a few others on the forum that are interested in this sort of thing like @leslie10646 and @DJ Dangerous , so I thought I'd do a few scans which are relevant to the Irish scene, and post them in this thread. Hopefully they will provoke some discussion. I'll start with some scans from the 1968-69 edition which was the first one published. At this early stage there were many small operations with one or two ships service a wide variety of Irish Sea routes, including some that seem quite surprising from today's viewpoint. Even in the 1960s, some of these were starting to merge or collaborate. Firstly, some adverts: Next, the 'Eire' section, as it was called back then: And now some information on the container ports in Northern Ireland: Still from 1968, some data on selected GB mainland ports which served Ireland, plus the Freightliner network of the time:

I've written about the green ones here. Any more info or photos would be very welcome!

So, what became of the green H vans with hinged doors? Well I think the answer is that they got repainted, and disappeared into the regular H van fleet. With the green paint gone, it was only the buffers and couplings to distinguish them from the normal fitted H vans, and these don't stand out in general photos unless you're looking very closely. Fitted vans were preferred for the Derry Goods so it's no surprise to find a shot at Waterside in 1972 where the nearest fitted H van appears to have the extended buffers of a former green one, but is now painted grey: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509190566 In 1977 Jonathan Allen photographed 18778 in the Youghal goods, its number is within the modified batch but it does not have a screw coupling or vacuum bag, and the buffers appear to be the standard type; it probably lost its special features at overhaul: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/40288038462 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/26356242948 Another example which did keep its extended buffers is 18848, which was still lurking at Inchicore in brown livery in 1986 and 1988 as seen in these two photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509013426 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511545930 That's all I've got so far. Any more info or photos would be welcome. When the IRM H vans turn up, I have plans to bash some of them into these types...

Let's go back to another snippet of information in the Pender&Richards notes. Fifteen of this group were fitted with sliding doors (for pallet traffic) at the same time. The other really good quality photo of a green H van (albeit a black and white image) is one of those fitted with sliding doors. This is in the IRRS Flickr archive so it is only viewable by members. Here’s the Flickr link: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510273317 Intriguingly this wagon is 18828, the consecutive number to the hinged door version in the RCTS photo. The bodysides are completely different but everything else looks the same as on 18829, including the livery (green sides, remainder black) and the extended buffers. Additionally, we can see clearly that screw couplings are fitted. Although variable in length, screw couplings are fundamentally longer than 3-link couplings and this could be a reason for extending the buffers on these wagons. In the IRRS photo, 18828 is marshalled between two other similar wagons in the same livery, so there are actually three of them in that photo although we can only see a small part of the other two. We can see enough to be sure that they were also fitted with sliding doors. Now, these sliding door H palvans are visually very distinctive compared to all other types. For weeks I've been scouring photos showing goods yards full of vans looking for more images of them. I have come up with just one! There were only 15 in total, but I'd have expected to find more than one photo. Other rare types such as GSR grain vans crop up rather more frequently. Anyway, here's a link to the photo in the IRRS Flickr archive. It's dated 1972 and by this time the van has been repainted grey, and is marshalled among a train of the later type of palvan: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510435292 In the next post I'll go back to some of the hinged door versions as seen in later life.

A good spot. Look closely at the image of the two in the mail train at Westland Row and I think they are the same: Additionally, see the link in the next post I'm just writing...

Now, it’s time to throw a spanner in the works! Ernie has some marvellous photos on Flickr showing veteran 0-6-0T number 90 shunting vans at Cork Albert Quay, dated 12 September 1960: One of the vans shown clearly in these images is 18836, within the batch built in 1958, apparently retro-fitted with vacuum brakes and painted green in 1961/62, and only a few numbers higher than green 18829 that we’ve seen already. Yet this van is already vacuum-brake-fitted in 1960 (we can see the vac cylinder, vac pipe as well as the brake handwheel in the first photo). It is in rather grimy grey livery that would be consistent with a couple of years in service since being built in 1958. According to Pender&Richards this van ought to have been unfitted at this date. Is the photo date plausible? Well loco 90 was withdrawn at Cork shed in October 1959, but soon reinstated and remained in use on pilot, shunting and occasional railtour duties until it was withdrawn finally in 1961. So, the photo date of 12 September 1960 is entirely plausible. Given the grimy grey condition of van 18836 I would suggest that it is shown prior to any conversion and repainting in green in 1961. Yet it is vacuum brake fitted already. A possibility is that this batch of 100 H vans 18762-18861 were originally built with vacuum brakes (as per the previous 220 H vans), and that the 1961/2 conversion referred to in Pender&Richards was to fit the screw couplings and extended buffers. These would have made them more suitable for running in passenger and mail trains, and perhaps justified a different paint scheme to distinguish them from the other fitted H vans without extended buffers or screw couplings.

With the ship carrying the IRM fitted H vans almost visible from the crow’s nest, I thought it would be timely to write about the green ones. IRM haven’t offered a green one (yet), perhaps wisely, because they were non-standard in some respects. Nevertheless, they were eye-catching vehicles during their short life in that livery, and I recall that I made an attempt at modelling one back in the 1980s during my first attempt at Irish modelling. By gathering together some information on them, perhaps this will help others to do a better job than I did back then! The only really clear, complete colour view of a green H van that I am aware of is in the RCTS archive, and can be seen on this link. It is number 18829: https://archive.rcts.org.uk/shopviewer.php?pg=44353&code=CH06463C There are some interesting things we can see in this photo (follow the link and you can zoom in to see the details): The sides are green, but the rest of the van is black. The buffers have been extended by inserting some packing pieces behind them. The packing is approximately 6” thick and much longer bolts have been fitted. Otherwise, from what we can see in this view, it’s a fairly standard ‘fitted’ H van. In 1967, Pender&Richards wrote with reference to the H vans in general: Nos. 18542-18761 were built with vacuum brakes and can run on passenger trains. The group 18762-18861, which were built in 1958, were fitted with vacuum brakes in 1961/62. These wagons were painted green at the same time, though some have since been repainted in the standard grey livery. Fifteen of this group were fitted with sliding doors (for pallet traffic) at the same time. The green one linked above in the RCTS photo is number 18829 (towards the end of the batch apparently retro-fitted and painted green), shown in 1962. Of course there is no guarantee that there were modified and repainted in numerical order. It wasn't a new idea to have 4-wheel wagons capable of running in passenger trains, and finished in passenger livery. For example, many horseboxes were vacuum-brake fitted and painted green. However, the timing of these modified and repainted H vans, being outshopped in 1961/62 was unfortunate because the black and tan livery was just about to replace the green livery for passenger trains. Also, many branch lines were closed to passengers (or closed entirely) in the 1960s, reducing the need for passenger-train rated vans. It is not clear whether all 100 vans were outshopped in green; if they were then many of them must have repainted in grey fairly quickly. Let’s look at some more pictures of green H vans, appearing in the background of other photos. 'Irish Railways in Colour' (Ferris) vol 2 p. 13 shows one at Inchicore in the background of a photo of 'Sambo', but only the top half is visible. I think there must have been a gallery of photographers taking almost the same photo at this time in 1961, as very similar but non-identical views appear in other places. For example, this photo from Ernie shows almost the same scene as the photo in the book, but a moment earlier or later. The van hidden behind Sambo is a green one, whereas the ones on the left and the right are grey: The best variant of this shot I've found in a book is shown below in heavily-cropped form, which clearly shows the extended buffers, screw coupling and the livery of green with black ends and underframe: Again, there was clearly an enthusiast visit to North Wall in 1961 where several people photographed 'Woolwich' 376 at the head of a freight train, with the first wagon being a green H van. These are all in the IRRS Flickr archive; sadly none of the images have a legible number on the van: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570708143 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569609807 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510258067 Another IRRS trip to Limerick also produced multiple photos of a green van in the background; these are cropped scans from a couple of my books: One of Ernie's more recent posts is this image dated 1961, with some besuited individuals standing in exactly the wrong place for our purposes: Also from Ernie, this photo is interesting, as it shows two fitted H vans in a mail train, and the visible end looks a lot darker than the sides suggesting that these are green with black ends. They are certainly doing the duty that the green vans were modified for. The nearer one appears to be 18774 but I can't make out the second one. The date is 1961: A few more image links to the IRRS Flickr archive, which you will only be able to see if you are a member: Dated 1961 and from the IRRS Flickr archive, the van on the far left appears to be a green one, though I confess the colours on this image aren't the best: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53468861704 Here's another image from the IRRS Flickr archive showing a green H van in 1962, marshalled among other unfitted H vans in a normal freight train: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570662593 This is the latest photo of a green H van I've found, dated 1967. It's a rather distant view unfortunately, and in the IRRS Flickr archive: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569603052 So, it seems that in 1961 the green vans weren't incredibly rare, it's possible that there were tens of them. However, almost all the images of them that I've found are from 1961, very few in later years, so most may have been quickly repainted. It's possible that the later conversions in 1962 were never painted green; that would seem unlikely for any outshopped after the black and tan passenger livery was introduced. I have several more posts on the subject coming up, which may muddy the waters further. If you can point me towards more photos of green H vans, please do! Mol

None of the former C class had train air brakes, so no.