Mol_PMB

I'm just adding all the tabs to the chassis etch artwork. There is provision for rigid chassis, 1 axle rigid and the other two compensated (with hornguides), or all 3 axles with hornguides and CSB suspension. Also 16.5mm gauge or 21mm gauge. This sheet will be 0.45mm brass rather than the 0.25mm nickel silver used for the body. To fill some gaps, a couple of bonus items for the body on here: a radiator fan and mount, and a handrail bending jig for the sizes required. Neither really necessary but why not? I have a little bit of space left over even on a small A5 sheet, no doubt I've forgotten something, but you never realise until it's too late! If I don't think of anything else by tomorrow then I will fill it with various widths of strip - you can never have too many bits of brass strip!

Many thanks, you're too kind! I decided to ask Colour-Rail for a better copy of the view of E402 in 1961 shown in Irish Railways Traction and Travel, 1994 edition, page 70, and they are going to scan it for me. In the process we have also identified two other nice colour views in their collection, reference numbers IR637 and FIE02925. I'm ordering good copies of those for my personal use, but for info if you put those numbers into the 'reference' search box here: https://colourrail.co.uk/nonuk You will find that IR637 is mainly a colour view of D class 1000 in original dark green, plus the cab of silver E417. Dark green loco, eau-de-nil snail and E number in one shot, for the shades of green... FIE02925 is a panoramic colour view of the goods yard at Albert Quay, with E403 shunting. The top of the footplate looks very dark, but then so does the roof! Slightly tangential: FIE04522 is E413 in black, a very nice view shunting a green carriage FIE05083 and FIE05084 are at Fenit, with a silver shunter at work, but it's G602 rather than an E.

A photo newly uploaded by Ernie has some items of pre-ISO container interest, though only in the background. This is Galway in 1967: Just to the right of the loco, a 'Lancashire Flat' on a 20' fitted flat wagon, probably 25201 series. And to the left of the loco, a couple of CIE road division's livestock swap-bodies, painted dark green. I am also exploring the potential of one of these for a CIE container. It has the advantage of no planking, and I think it won't need much surgery to fit in a corrugated open wagon. Despite being a very old model the moulding detail is quite good:

The new photo of E401 uploaded by the IRRS is interesting in showing the original paint job before it started to get dirty. We may think of silver locos as a 'dip job' - silver all over - but in fact there are quite a few details that were not silver. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54328667572 My interpretation of the photo is as follows: Red: buffer beams (not buffers) Black: buffers and housings couplings vac pipes lamp irons footstep treads handrails and grab handles bonnet door catches bonnet door stops on footplate axleboxes (not hornguides) leaf springs and upper part of hangers (not hanger brackets or auxiliary springs) rubber surround to windows An intermediate colour (may not all be the same): oil and fuel filler pipes water filler pipes drain pipe on front A major part I am not sure about from this photo is the colour of the top surface of the footplate. The front edge looks black but the angle of this view doesn't show us the top. Now, the locos may not all have been painted the same - sometimes the first loco of a class was outshopped in a special livery for photos, or the scheme was simplified as construction continued. But let's look at some other photos of relatively clean silver locos and see if we can confirm the colours. On close inspection of the other photos of clean locos, the details picked out in black usually seem to be consistent, though this is most obvious on clean locos and the contrast rapidly reduces in service. This photo of a fairly clean E412 shows the bodywork details but the axleboxes and hornguides have already become uniform dirt: https://www.transporttreasury.com/jim-flint-jim-harbart-1001-1997/hab80c1ff#hab80c1ff But after a year in service the contrast on things like the footstep treads and grab rails was much reduced - probably a combination of wear and dirt. Seen here on E410: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54323027377 Also note that the water filler pipes on E410 look to be silver, whereas on E401 and E412 they were very clearly a darker colour. The smaller drain pipe, however, looks silver on E412 but is clearly dark on E401. I get the impression that the locos were not all painted identically... Next, the top of the footplate, which is also the top of the fuel tank. A place where staff would have to walk and work, and where oil spills from the fillers and leaks from the engine compartment could spread. Would it be just smooth and painted silver? An odd choice - if it were my loco I'd make it chequerplate and black or grey. There are a few photos from higher viewpoints which show this. This photo of E409 when it was still pretty clean shows a grubby pale-coloured footplate that matches the side of the fuel tank - it's probably silver and certainly isn't black: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53445965317 There's also a photo of clean E407 on its first test run reproduced in IRRS journal 14/84 Feb 1981, p173. The top of the footplate matches the side of the fuel tank and the side of the bonnet. It contrasts with the black of the lamp irons and bonnet door stops. On the other hand, this view of E414 shows a fairly uniform dark colour on the footplate - is this a combination of dirt and shadow or was it painted? The rest of the loco is fairly clean. Also, we know that the Cork crews applied some local modifications to some of their E401s, like adding cab insulation. They might have modified the livery too. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511885685/ The view of E402 in 1961 shown in Irish Railways Traction and Travel, 1994 edition, page 70 also appears to show a dark footplate. That's a Colour-Rail image but I can't find it on their website. Some may have been painted a darker colour., but on the other hand, the loco lurking on the right of this colour image shows nicely how the filth accumulated to hide the original colour: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255052946/ My gut feel is that it was probably silver to start with, but soon became filthy. This view of E411 by Alan Roome from 'Rails around Dublin' (Murray) p69 also shows how the filth gathered on the top surfaces: Now, for the pipes which have some an intermediate colour. I haven't found many colour photos of E401s in silver livery and even fewer where the loco is the main subject. The best one is of E402 by Neville Simms, reproduced in 'Irish Traction in Colour (Huntriss) p77: This photo has clear evidence of colour - blue - on the water filler pipes at the front. However, the other pipes are indeterminate and any trace of colour is lost in the grime. Ernie's photos of E413 in black livery (see yesterday's post) show that the water filler pipes were also painted blue in the later livery, and the oil filler pipes were green. It would be reasonable to assume that the fuel and oil filler pipes were also green when the locos were in silver livery, but soon became grimy. Another nice colour view is this IRRS one of E403, from the opposite angle: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255284989/ On this photo there is no sign of colour on the water and oil/fuel fillers - they look to be silver. Also note that the air receiver under the cab is silver - in the later black livery these were often yellow or orange. I think I'll walk carefully back out of this minefield...

Thanks again, IRRS Flickr! E401 absolutely fresh out of the box, we can see which bits of the running gear were silver when new: https://flic.kr/p/2qLQC63 It’s also interesting to see which bits weren’t silver on the bodywork - things like pipes, grab rails and bonnet door catches. It looks as if the top surface of the footplate may have been painted black too.

My apologies. The second post in the thread was only a week ago, I hadn't realised that the original post was so much older.

A sad lineup of Wagonmasters in May 2023, including a yellow and green one: Though a few of the species were still alive, if somewhat modified, like this one: Going back a few decades, these were much more interesting:

I took both of those photos on the same occasion, I travelled on the train with the Wagonmaster but the Ruston and the other carriage were there as well. I don't know where the coaches are now. The green and yellow locos ended up in the same scrap lines as all the brown ones.

Now that I think I've finished the bodywork, I thought I'd make a start with building the gearbox, to ensure that it is compatible with my chassis design. I've prepared all the parts ready for assembly, but will leave that until tomorrow. So thisis the sum total of where I'm up to so far:

I've no idea, but they do appear to be the model @WRENNEIRE is after, despite the curious description.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/235956475742 on Buy it Now

I got the soldering iron out again this morning and added a load of smaller details, so we now have: Fuel and oil filler pipes on the footplate: Guard irons and vacuum brake pipes at each end: A quick overview at that stage: Then back to the workbench to add buffer bases and fettle to trial fit the buffers themselves: Followed by using various offcuts of wire, tube and strip to create a representation of fuel tank support brackets, fuel balance pipe and drain valves: Finally, the windscreen wipers: I feel like I'm very nearly there with the body and footplate construction. I'll put it to one side for a little bit and try to work out what I've forgotten! Some of these details can be seen on the real thing in this excellent pair of photos recently uploaded by Ernie: The next major step is to finalise the functional chassis design and then get the custom chassis etch made.

I suggest we continue this discussion on the liveries page, here: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/1334-cie-locomotive-livery-variations-1960-1990/page/4/#comment-256501 I have laid out my reasoning for why I think this may be a non-standard livery, based on the study of hundreds of A class photos when compiling my livery matrix. Note that the photo date is March 1966. The loco could be green, but if so it would have been painted that colour after June 1962. I agree that the bubbles are grey; they are a mixture of the first batch (with wheel handbrake) and the second batch (with Morton lever handbrake). Orange bubbles would first appear the following year.

The IRRS have recently uploaded another image of A28 in this period, which can be seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54327467196/ There's some brief discussion here but I thought I'd bring it back onto the liveries page which is a more appropriate place https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/17976-making-an-‘e’-–-the-maybach-diesel-model-assembly-thread/page/3/#findComment-256487 Now, A28 kept its silver livery later than many. Here is a photo in silver in 1961: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255321124/ Note that there is a 30t brake van visible on the left. These were first introduced in 1960, and the van is quite weathered already, so I think 1961 is a plausible date for the above image. But A28 kept its silver longer than that. Here is a photo of A28 in silver, dated 3 June 1962, in the NLI O'Dea archive: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306035 So, what livery is A28 shown in? Green has been suggested. It seems unlikely that A28 would have been repainted in green in 1962 or later, but if it was it would surely have been light green? The 'mystery' livery images above all look very dark. Maybe different film sensitivities, but the 3 photos are all by different photographers in different conditions. We would also expect a green A class to have numbers on the middle of the sides, with a snail above on a separate metal plate. Even if the loco has covered itself in oil, the snail is usually visible as it was proud of the sides. Green is possible but it would be an unusual variant and a very late application of it, about a year after black and tan was first applied to an A class. The black and tan scheme was first applied to A6 in September 1961. Most A class repainted in 1962/63 got the black and deep tan livery, without roundel, no numbers on the sides. A28 in the 'mystery' photos isn't black and tan. In 1963/64, four of them received black without roundel, and large numbers on the middle of the sides. This livery had white 'eyebrows' on the front of the cab which are not visible on either end of A28 in the 'mystery' photos. A28 could be carrying an experimental version of the black livery without 'eyebrows'? From 1964/5, the standard black livery was introduced, large numbers on the ends, roundel in the middle of the sides, small number near both ends of the loco low down on the sides. This livery had white 'eyebrows' on the front of the cab. It was applied to A28 by the late 1960s, but it's not what we see in the 'mystery' photos as there are no eyebrows or roundel. We know that at times of traction and rolling stock shortage, Inchicore sometimes outshopped locos and carriages with incomplete paintwork - for example some E421s are recorded as entering traffic in 1962/63 in brown chromate primer/undercoat. This could be a plausible option? This is the basis of me considering this livery to be non-standard. If someone can produce a colour photo of A28 in the mid-1960s then perhaps we can settle the matter!

I see a photo of A28 in its odd livery has just been uploaded. I’m sure I commented on that somewhere in another thread here! https://flic.kr/p/2qLJtfU I still don’t know what colour it was, dark all over with numbers only on the ends, nothing on the sides at all. Possibly primer or undercoat? Anyway, fascinating pics, thanks IRRS!

Interesting! Departing Clones is a good example, it apparently takes an hour and 10 minutes to go 5 miles, but really it's only 10 minutes.

No new ideas on the livery for tourist trains on the bog then...

Great to see some more progress. Looking very promising!

It's surprising how long it takes to do something as simple as transfer artwork, when one's OCD demands the correct style for every digit. They are drawn from several fonts and then modified to be the closest match I can reasonably get. First stage is to collate all the real images: And then to find the squarest clearest image as a basis (in this case E417) to set the size and proportions of the typeface. Then develop the other digits to match. As for colours, well I've used the BS chart linked by John, and the paler one is BS381C-216 'eau de nil', whilst the other two are the related but slightly darker shades BS381C-217 and BS381C-218. There aren't many colour photos of the E class in silver, and they're not consistent with each other! And who knows how accurately the transfer ink will match whatever I specify. Never mind, the shapes are right I think. So is that the job done? Of course not! The white letters and numerals were all sorts of different shapes, sizes and colours. Sometimes not even the same on both ends of the same loco. I'll probably have to do each loco individually. Sigh...

This comment was, I think, about the sliding door 'palvan' type versions. Whether or not many of them were green, we have only found two photos showing the sliding door versions in any colour. One of the photos shows 3 green ones. There were supposed to be 15 of them. Compare to the 10 LMA vans, where we have 10 photos of them. And arguably they're harder to spot.

Did you mean to put in this link? Or have you got another different one? This is the only one I've found. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510435292

Nice! I hadn't realised that 8113 had worked beet trains too.

In the thread above there are links to 16 photos of green hinged-door H vans, but most don't have legible numbers. One photo shows two together. My gut feel is that there were more than 6 green ones, but probably not 100. I think the green livery was very short-lived and that's why they are scarce in photos, other than in the 1961-1963 period. Known numbers for hinged-door green vans include 18829, 18774, 18803. The ones that are extremely scarce in photos are the 15 with palvan-type sliding doors. There is one photo of a rake of 3 of these (in green) and another photo where one appears in the background in grey. That's all I've found of the sliding door type. That compares with about 10 photos of the less-numerous LMA vans. Some H vans were converted to flats, and I wonder whether that included some of the non-standard ones?

Taking a look through my rose-tinted spectacles to scan a few of my old photos, here she is on sabbatical down south: 112 drags 153 below Waterford box, 215 just visible on the Dublin service: Same place, same loco, different occasion: On this occasion I'd rather have had an orange one! A very gloomy day as 112 heads an empty beet train across the Barrow Bridge: And finally, a passenger service; this was a very memorable railtour!

How it used to be when the DD failed. A six-car 80 packed full and standing powers north out of Drogheda just after I had alighted from it. Two of the trailers are former Enterprise stock.