Mol_PMB

I think I can narrow down the range a bit, though I am making an assumption that the numbering policy for wagons changed at the same date as the policy for carriages. Wagons supplied by Hurst Nelson in 1907 were in the old numbering scheme. Bogie carriages built by the GSWR in 1915 were the first carriages built in the new numbering scheme. The new numbering scheme for wagons was definitely in use by 1920 but the numbers reached indicate that it had started a few years earlier. It occurs to me that there was also a change in loco numbering policy around the same time, with the new classes starting at 400, 500, 900. Maybe Watson influence?

At some stage in the 1900 to 1920 period, the GSWR introduced a new numbering scheme whereby blocks of numbers were allocated to particular wagon or carriage types. For example, 15000-19999 was allocated to goods vans. This number scheme was continued by the GSR and CIE for both wagons and carriages, and (with some developments) is still with us today. What year was it introduced?

Reasonable progress so far on my bank holiday weekend project: I've decided that this will be E407 in black livery, suiting the 1964-1974 period. This photo by David Heath on Flickr shows it in 1964 when the black livery was still fairly fresh:

Indeed, or for those wanting liveries not in the forthcoming batch. I'm interested in the grey ones if no-one else wants them, but because I'm in the UK I appreciate that may be a hassle so I'll hold back for now.

Can anyone recommend good books on the GSWR and/or the GSR, either general histories or with a focus on rolling stock? At present I'm trying to piece together the details of the 5'3" gauge wagons inherited by CIE. I've made a lot of progress based on photos, and there is some detailed info in books on the smaller GSR constituents (e.g. CB&CSR, MGWR, WL&WR) Most of the smaller Irish railways seem to have their own dedicated books, sometimes two or three titles on the same obscure branch line. But I've struggled to find much on the GSWR and GSR - am I missing something? I do have 'The Great Southern and Western Railway' by K.A.Murray and D.B.McNeill, published about 50 years ago. For its time, it's good, but with only 200 small pages and 50 pictures (most of which are formal loco portraits) it's nothing like as detailed as more recent works on other lines. There is only one page of text on goods wagons and not much more on carriages, and not even an overview of the quantities of rolling stock. I also have 'Great Southern Railways' by Donal Murray, a useful picture album but not attempting to provide a formal history or any details or statistics on rolling stock. 'Irish Broad Gauge Coaching Stock' by Des Coakham, with such a broad subject cannot cover any railway in great detail and the GSWR and GSR sections can only provide a brief overview and a few examples which tend to focus more on the oddballs than the typical. I am aware of two large tomes focusing on locomotives: 'Locomotives Of The Great Southern & Western Railway' by Jeremy Clements, Michael McMahon, Alan O'Rourke; and Locomotives Of The GSR' by Jeremy Clements, Michael McMahon. I don't have these, and my interest isn't really in the locomotives, though I might consider buying them to peer into the background of photos looking for more interesting things like wagons and carriages. Does anyone on the forum have these? Would you recommend them? In the IRRS journals, there's a very useful article 'GSR Coaching Stock, 1924-44' by B Pender, but I haven't found much on the GSWR, or much info on wagons of either company. Is there anything else that I should look to add to my library? Many thanks, Mol

It would do a nice job of engraving the surface patterns and cutting out the strips too. Could be done in a material like 1.5mm or 2mm MDF to match the thickness of the real coping stones. Here's a little test piece I just found lying around - an elaborate window shutter (this is in 7mm scale) cut and engraved on 1.2mm ply: And a whole building I designed and made using the laser cutter: I haven't unleashed the laser cutter on an Irish project yet, perhaps I should!

Interesting! On a similar theme, Alcock and Brown landed* at a rail-served 'airfield'* when they arrived in Ireland, and famously travelled on another Irish industrial railway to reach the nearby town of Clifden. * It was more of a crash in a bog, but still...

The one on the left is an ex-GNR vac fitted van. The GNR van design evolved over the years with increased tonnage capacity and size, and only a small proportion were vac fitted. The later 1920s design was published as an Irish RCH standard, and they were also produced for the MGWR and GSWR/GSR with some variations. I have been collating data on these and maybe I should start a dedicated thread. Leslie used to make a kit for the GNR ones but I'm not sure wheher these are still available. The GNR used the Briitsh Railways painting approach for its wagons: grey = unfitted and red-brown = fitted. Hence the appearance of a red-brown van pre-1970. Different to CIE where everything was grey, and later everything was brown, regardless of brakes. A couple more pics of the vac-fitted later version from Ernie - I have collated many more... And from Brian Flannigan on Flickr, a GSR version (unfitted):

Here are some of Ernie's photos on Flickr showing 'normal' (not green) fitted H vans, with just plain 3-link couplings, not even an instanter. On the other hand, this one has instanter couplings. And of course the green ones had screw couplings. Seems like there were plenty of variations!

I think the tweaks needed would all be easy in CAD as you suggest. Check the wheelbase. One of my books lists these as 10' wheelbase though their predecessors were 9'6". Your existing model definitely has a shorter wheelbase than the ones in the photo above. A subtle point - on this late batch, on the solebars there aren't any washer plates for the bolts. I think you should also reduce the 6 planks to 4 and a half wider ones (same overall height, just move the plank lines). There are some other photos of wagons from this batch in the IRRS archives and they also seem to have fewer, wider planks, so it was probably standard for the batch. As well as being prototypical, that would make them visually a bit more different. The position of the half-plank seems to vary! https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570935855 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419501956 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419695864 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419501966 I was able to modify/update the axleboxes on the two I've built already, but it would be good to have the IRCH standard design ready-made and this would suit many other wagon types.

I'm still trawling Flickr for green tin van illustrations, there will be a follow-up post here in due course. But I have come across another unusual variation that I just thought I'd show here. This photo is from Brian Flannigan on Flickr, and it shows tin luggage van 2737 in black and tan livery. The unusual bit is the horizontal beading along the waist, which is not normally present on a tin van. Now, I knew I'd seen this once before, and here's that other photo, which is a print I bought on eBay mainly for the E class it features. We can't see the number on this silver tin van; it also has a horizontal bead but it's a few inches lower down than on 2737. My best guess at the moment is that this was associated with a collision repair, and probably only on one side of the vehicles. But I'd be open to correction if anyone knows more! Just as a reminder of what normal ones looks like, here's a photo from Ernie on Flickr: Also available in green, to stick with the thread theme:

Agreed. The green ones also had the instanter couplings replaced with screw couplings. I think this was the main justification for the different livery; it would have made them more suitable for coupling in passenger trains. If there was only one fitted H van, like in the image below by Roger Joanes, then the screw couplings from the adjacent vehicles could have been used, but if there were several H vans then having the vans fitted with screw coupling would have been much better. See Ernie's photo at the bottom of the page, with a long tail of fitted vans behind the passenger and mail coaches. Screw couplings are a few inches longer than normal ones and extended buffers are normally fitted to vehicles with screw couplings (for example, when BR retro-fitted vac brakes and screw couplings to many of its goods vans, they also fitted longer buffers). Most of the GNR fitted vans also had screw couplings and spacers behind the buffers as can be seen in these IRRS photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509081588 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53500778071 And in this one by Ernie, though it's a bit distant: Though this one seems to be an exception: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257197990

That is looking superb, and your experimentation with different techniques has really paid off. I was going to suggest the edging could be laser-cut (I have such a toy) but I think your painted and printed version looks wonderful!

For some reason I had overlooked this wonderful photo from Brian Flannigan on Flickr. These are two of the 1945 batch of wooden-framed opens. Seen in 1971, I get the impression that this last batch were built (or perhaps rebuilt) with 4 and a half wider planks, rather than the 6 planks that was normal in earlier years.

Some late 1960s and early 1970s inspiration: From Brian Flannigan on Flickr: Two from Jonathan Allen on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/30337458288 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49702131002 There are plenty more on the IRRS Flickr archive including some in PW service.

On brake van types, this image for sale on ebay appears to show a pair of 6-wheel brake vans in CIE livery, dated 1955. Rare beasts, does anyone know the origin of these?

There were some quite significant differences between the 30 ton and the 20 ton, I'm afraid! They were steel bodied rather than wooden, had entirely different suspension and roller bearings, and a different arrangement of footboards and handrails. They were vac braked too. The 30 ton was the last design of CIE brake van and was in use the longest (there are still a couple even now) so it would be the most suitable type to accompany Enda's other rolling stock. Most of the 20 ton types were withdrawn by the late 1970s. The 30 ton is available in body kit form from SSM. Here's a 30-ton, photo by Fred Dean on Flickr: Compared to a 20 ton, photo by Ernie on Flickr: A handful of the 20t vans were lated updated with a body style a bit more like the 30t vans, but there were still significant differences! Here's one from Brian Flannigan on Flickr:

Very nice, some superbly observed and modelled details there! Are the drivers on strike today?

Great idea - go for it! There are a couple of other Irish wagon types available too.

No questions are stupid - please keep asking! You're generally correct - the brown livery was introduced in 1970 but took many years to spread across the whole fleet. Unfitted freight trains (for revenue-earning purposes) ceased in the late 1970s, and there were still plenty of grey wagons around then. The LB flat wagons as modelled by IRM were a slightly special case. The grey ones represent those wagons built as flats, representing the late 1950s onwards. IRM haven't applied snails or roundels but a few of these wagons did have them. Between 1962 and 1975, over 1500 new vacuum-braked flat wagons were built: longer, faster, better load capacity than the old LB flat wagons. It is likely that most of the old grey LB flats were demoted to PW use around this time, though some may have survived in revenue service. The brown ones are physically slightly different - look at the position of the stanchions and the number series - and they represent covered vans which were cut down to flats in 1973, for use by the PW department. They lasted into the early 1980s in PW service - there was a lot of engineering work going on associated with the DART construction and speed upgrades on the Cork main line, so unfitted wagons remained in use later with the PW department.

Great progress!

Very nice! You know what that needs - a Class 15 to pull it!

For now, I'm going to call these finished, and I'll move on to the next project. I have an empty long weekend ahead of me and a plethora of half-finished things!

The brakes and sanding pipes would need to be realigned but it would be an easy fix. The wheel hubs are fairly chunky, but you may be right that there wouldn't be much of them still in contact with the axles if they were moved out. Would you like me to take some more measurements? If you like, I could take the cover plate off the drivetrain and send you some photos of what it looks like inside.

G.I.B. !!