Mol_PMB

A few more container photos to add to the thread. First from Roger Joanes on Flickr. Just to the left of the loco's smokebox in 1964 is a pre-ISO open box container, on a 25201 series 20' flat wagon: Possibly something similar in bright red livery on an 'LB' flat in the background of this IRRS photo also dated 1964: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251291181 This is a slightly later design of open container, ISO-compatible and suitable for palletised traffic. It seems to be in black livery with a roundel on the end, and carried on a 25436-series wagon: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511479228 From ML125R on Flickr, some interesting photos around North Wall around a decade later. This one is undated but probably late 1970s. A selection of CIE open-top coal containers on the left, and perhaps a CIE 40' insulated container in grubby white just to the right of the loco: Among the CIE and Bell containers, there are several Ellerman Lines boxes in this late 1970s view: This image is dated 1984 but looks a few years earlier to me. A fine array of CIE containers of many types and sizes, as well as a lot of CTI, and a couple of MOL. A couple of the 10' bulk glucose container here: From Colm O'Callaghan on Flickr, some later images of ISO containers including some interesting ones. CIE curtain-sided boxes on the left, and note the pair of Uniload 10' on an air-braked 60' flat just behind the loco: Two photos of the open-topped coal containers; there was a variety of types of these, the older ones being 8' high and the later ones 8'6". Some may have been conversions from normal dry boxes: Super shot of an acrylonitrile tank freshly painted in IR livery: One of the less common grey 10' containers just behind the loco here: From the IRRS archive, one of the early ISO CIE insulated containers: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570887180

The E401 body etch artwork is complete and I have sent it off to the etchers for a quote.

Most interesting. Some tin vans did have some other lettering, 'GUARD' on the door and the boiler vans had 'NOT TO BE ROUGH SHUNTED' on the ends, though the latter soon disappeared under the muck. Here's some nice views from Ernie: I have also found it difficult to find colour views that are clear enough to show the lettering colour, but I've definitely seen one photo clearly with red lettering - I just can't find it now! It would be nice to know which types of vehicle had the red lettering and which had the green.

Regarding styling, the leading coach here has a lot in common with the model shown above: Well I suppose we'll just have to wait for the next IRM 'big announcement' and then be either delighted or disappointed... I reckon that silver coach on the right would follow very nicely from the Park Royals - same bogies, chassis and interior.

I suppose you can't have too many drivers qualified on locos because there isn't enough loco work to maintain their competency. But it ought to be possible to have a few. I'd have thought that for the blue GMs could be in a competence category with the Enterprise GMs.

Call in the RPSI!

Possibly one of these? http://www.arcadiarail.co.uk/products/lenz/trains/locomotive/40152-01/kof-ii-diesel-locomotive--0-4-0-5720.html

Ah, comiserations on the extra charges! I really ought to finish off my little O gauge inglenook layout sometime. It's nearly there, just needs a few low-relief buildings and a couple more trees. At least if I make a big version of the E401 class etch, I'll have somewhere to test it.

You get a phone call? Luxury! I just got home to find a card through the door and a soggy, dented parcel lobbed over the side gate in the rain. The online tracking says it was delivered to a neighbour, but the card they put through the door said it was behind the gate, which was the unhappy truth. The loco survived the experience though.

E407 carries a CIE roundel, which means it can't be much earlier than 1964. So I think the photo date is correct.

I'm going to keep thinking about the chassis while I carry on with the body etch. The artwork for all the main parts is now done, just a few little details to do, and then I can finalise the etch layout and add all the tabs. There are some options for grilles, exhaust cowl and brake dump valve so that most of the class can be modelled throughout their life - until someone finds a picture that proves me wrong! There will be the following sub-assemblies: Bonnet sides and ends Bonnet top Footplate and cosmetic frames Cab sides, ends and control panel Cab roof The two bonnet sub-assemblies will be made separately but then soldered together. The cab roof will remain removable if desired. The footplate, cab and bonnet will all be held together by a bolt under the control panel in the front of the cab. There will also be bolts at each end of the footplate which will connect the functional chassis to the footplate and either the cab or bonnet above. My current thinking is that coupling mounts will be on the functional chassis. Three pics of the real thing from various angles and showing the three liveries carried, thanks to Ernie and Roger Joanes:

Very nice indeed! Superb rolling stock and layout atmosphere.

Many thanks! Looks like there's plenty of neat designs there, I'll have to see whether any are suitable for my needs or if I can just use some of the ideas. I've had a look at using one of High Level's more standard gearboxes, the RoadRunner, which is only 8.6mm wide. The final drive gear is 23 tooth, and it would be possible to create a geartrain directly from that to the second axle either with five gears 23-12-12-12-23 (purple). High Level don't offer gears bigger than 23 tooth, but other suppliers do. Replacing the three small ones with a 27 tooth in a straight line (red) would mesh fine, but the ground clearance would be zero with the 27-tooth gear, not ideal for a loco with suspension. Another option would be a 28 tooth gear mounted slightly higher (green) though the motor might have to be tipped further forward to suit. With this type of arrangement, I'd need to provide some form of non-rigid torque reaction for the motor that didn't mess with the suspension too much. Why is it so hard? I thought having no rods would make it easier than a D class... Maybe I should revert to the previous arrangement, make the leading axle rigid and just put the CSB on the other two axles.

The thin ones! And there's still not enough room in OO. 21mm is OK, but I want to design this to work for both gauges. Thanks for confirming. I'm not a fan of rigid chassis either! For a 6-wheel loco I need a more complex arrangement of compensation or springing, which is why the hornblocks and CSB method appeal. But I think that works best if all wheels are sprung.

Many thanks - I feared that would be the case. It definitely doesn’t fit for 00 gauge! I’ll have to find an alternative solution if this is to be buildable for OO with hornblocks. Maybe a rigid chassis would be sufficient for OO?

Thanks for the tip re NWSL. I have successfully used their products in the past, though I got the impression that their range isn't as big as it once was. Certainly last time I looked to re-order parts I'd had from them in the past, it seems they are no longer stocked. Anyway, here's a sketch I've worked up this evening. The wheels and 2mm axles are shown in black, the functional frame in dark grey and the cosmetic frame behind in grey: The idea is to use a QuaDriver 20mm wheelbase to power the two closely-spaced axles, with the 'tower' at the left-hand end wheelset and the arm connected to the middle wheelset. I can't find any actual dimensions for this unit, but from @Tullygrainey's photo (reproduced below) it looks like it should be fine. Then I'll have to create a custom equivalent of a Drivestretcher with five 20-tooth gears to connect to the third axle (sketched in blue above, I know they're not proper gear shapes but it's the PCD that matters and 4x8=32 so that works. Having done a lot of searching online I think I've found the key dimensions of the hornblocks, datum holes and CSB pivot heights. I've had to refer to several different websites and documents because I haven't yet found any one source that provides a complete dataset. I think the following are correct: Hornblock slot in frames is 5mm wide. Top of hornblock slot is 4mm above axle centreline. CSB pivot points are 3mm, 4mm or 5mm above the axle centreline. I've used 5mm in the sketch above. Small datum hole above hornblock slot is 5.2mm above the axle centreline (this is an estimate, but it's more than 5mm as on the images of the CSB jig it's fractionally above the 5mm row) I've then used one of the online CSB spreadsheets to work out where the pivot points ought to be if the wheels are to be equally loaded. A=18, B=11, C=24, D=16. Hopefully I've got this right - @Horsetan does this look plausible? I still need to work out the width between the frames. Again it's hard to find published dimensions for the width of the QuadDriver gearbox, but it looks like it might be a tight fit between the the thinner 'spacesaver' hornblocks for OO gauge. I fear it might not fit at all. The thinner hornblocks are nominally 2.2mm wide, so with OO back-to-back being 14.5mm that leaves only 10.1mm for the gearbox as well as any clearance needed. The gearbox looks wider than 10mm! @Tullygrainey, is yours accessible to measure the width of the QuadDriver gearbox? For once, 21mm gauge is easier in this case, but I need to make my solution work for both gauges. This is becoming a headache!

The West Clare had 4 so surely you ‘need’ just the one more?

The early applications of black and tan (1962/3) were done before the CIE 'roundel' was introduced at the end of 1963, so they didn't have the roundel applied. Examples include B141s as delivered, and the relatively small number of Crossley-engined A and C class locos painted in black and tan. Later repaints (and the newly-delivered 181 class) in the mid and late 1960s had the roundel with the black and tan livery, but on the AR / B101 / B201 class locos the tan band was usually not as deep. The deep tan band and CIE roundel shown on A39R above is prototypically correct for this loco, but it was a rare combination. Considering the AEC railcars in black and tan, some of them carried the roundel and unusually it was on the tan (orange) band, not on the black. The roundel colours were therefore changed so it would show up. The 'broken wheel' was black with a fine white edging, while the CIE remained white. No AEC railcars carried 'Supertrain' which as far as I am aware was only applied to air-conditioned coaches (Mk2 and Mk3) and locomotives.

Fortunately, mine seems to have survived being thrown over a 6' high gate by the courier, and sitting in the rain for most of the day. A credit to Accurascale packaging (though it took a while to properly dry out the cardboard box). I've just given it a test run on 'Boysnope Bump' with a few trucks, and it sounds and runs very nicely. I'm impressed! I haven't done much with this layout for a year or so (and of course it's not finished, though probably more advanced than most of my layout attempts). One of those things about long lead-time pre-orders - this is the first of 3 locos I ordered in advance to actually turn up! When I get back to O gauge it will need some serious weathering to represent the Lancashire Tar Distillers 88DS!

Thanks David. I've used Delrin chain in 7mm scale too, but it doesn't seem to be widely used in 4mm scale and these locos have particularly small wheels which would require small sprockets and a fine chain. With any small shunter I think compensation or springing of some sort is very important - not just to minimise derailments but to improve pick up, exactly as you say. From an enquiry on RMweb I have the following answer relating to the High Level gearboxes (though this is from someone who uses them, rather than the manufacturer): Most gears are module 0.4 but the likes of the reduction gear in the 54:1 gear boxes are a mix. The 27/10 twin gear is mod 0.3 for the 27 tooth and Module 0.4 for the 10 tooth. The High Level 'Quaddriver' is a good call, it's available in 20mm wheelbase which would be right for the two closer wheelsets on the E401. Though to get the weight over the driven axles in that case would give a loco with very asymmetric weight distribution. I was thinking of using the same principle to power all 3 wheelsets, but it's a bit of a challenge to arrange that to work smoothly with compensation/springing as well. I'll keep working on the body artwork while I consider the chassis!

Ah great, many thanks, I’ll have a good read tomorrow!

Sorry, the existing etch can’t be built as a E421 - there are many very significant differences between the two classes. The E421s are 2 feet longer for a start! Cabs and bonnets are completely different in both styles and dimensions. The chassis could be common between both classes. I’m not ruling out doing an E421 as a follow-up, depending on how the E401 turns out. But I suspect IRM may have an E421 somewhere in their future plans which is partly what has steered me towards the E401. Please not that this is absolutely not a commercial venture but I would be happy to support interested fellow modellers. I’d still welcome some advice on the chassis though! How would you arrange the gearing? Cheers, Mol

Best tell them to take a few chainsaws then if there's a tree down across the line! Seriously, there have been some train drivers with life-changing injuries as a consequence of crashing into trees. Do Translink have a way to report this sort of thing?

I look forward to seeing your plans!

I'm hoping that I can get the body etch artwork finished within the next week or so, and then maybe in 2 weeks time I can show the prototype body being built. I'll do a separate thread for that. The chassis is still a challenge. I'm leaving as much space as possible to fit it in. I'll work something out eventually. It makes sense to do the chassis on a separate etch as it will need a thicker material and there will be variants needed for different track gauges. It would be interesting to know, among any forum members who would contemplate an etched E401 kit (this may well be a very small audience!) would you prefer rigid, compensated, sprung, CSB? And what gauge are you working in? Personally I'm working in 21mm gauge and most of my experience is with compensation rather than springing, but I'm open to new ideas especially if people can provide advice. And if you might possibly be interested in one of these, what period do you model? There were a lot of detail variations between the late 50s silver and the late 70s black eras, I've worked out most of these but which should I try and provide for? Cheers, Mol