Mol_PMB

E416 is one of the camera-shy locos, and looking again at this photo (the only one I have found, and that was today) I've just realised it has a different livery variant from everything else, so my livery matrix is wrong... Seen here in 1972 on the RPSI website: https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/members/galleries/68/eblana-railtour-1972 This is black with white vee at each end. But it has no roundel on the side, and a large number on the cabside. It's an intermediate livery like a few of the black A and C class had, including A55 modelled by IRM. A 'normal' black E401 class would have a roundel and the side number would be smaller, and on both the cab and the bonnet, as shown in this nice view of E407 by David Heath in 1964: Another modification is also visible by comparing these two photos. As-built the locos had plain rectangular bufferbeams as seen on E407 (1964), but around 1970 they had notches cut in the bottom near each end, as seen on E416 (1972). I think this was so that they could be lifted more easily by crane. As the locos aged they seemed prone to axle failure and this simple mod may have been driven by the need to lift them more often. Here's a photo of the other end of E407 in 1970 with the notch looking newly-cut, and the paint not even touched up afterwards: http://www.hatspics.co.uk/photo_expanded.php?id=7008035 E402's notches look a bit neater in this 1972 photo by Jonathan Allen at Inchicore: I think all the locos still in traffic in 1970 received these notches. The model etch has half-etched notches in the back face of the bufferbeams and they can be filed out to represent the later condition.

Now let's cast our eyes upwards a bit to the radiator grilles themselves. As built on all 19 locos these were louvred in three panels, matching the style of the louvres in the bonnet side doors. Nicely illustrated in this photo by Ernie, and on this Transport Treasury photo: https://www.transporttreasury.com/jim-flint-jim-harbart-1001-1997/hab80c1ff#hab80c1ff These grilles seem to have been fixed in place, which would have made it awkward to inspect and maintain the radiators. Maybe they were supposed to be accessible from the door on the nose, or by removing part of the bonnet top. Photos indicate that most locos carried the original grilles until about 1962/3, and they were then replaced. E405 received a replacement grille while still in silver livery, and I haven't seen any photos of locos in BnT or black liveries with the original grilles - most were probably renewed at the same overhauls when the locos were repainted. The replacement type of grille is shown very clearly in Ernie's photo of E415 here, quite freshly repainted in BnT. Rather than being flush with the bonnet side, the grille is a separate component with a raised frame around it, and a fine mesh grille. This type of grille seems to have been fitted to most or all of the class: Variants on this included some locos with grilles partially blanked off, such as E402 here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53506934384/ Or with even more blanked off, such as E417 in my previous post, or completely blanked off as E403 in a Casserley photo. I suspect the blanking plates may have been a seasonal thing. The other extreme was no grille at all, and no frame around the hole. E404 seems to have been like this for some years - you can see inside to the radiator panels themselves here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255280788/ The bonnet etch contains the original louvred grille, but this can be cut out and the later type of grille is provided as an overlay. The etch also provides a partially blanked off option, as on E402, and a set of plain frames to help you do your own thing for the grille. If you want to do E404 then you'll have to add the interior details yourself!

Let's start looking at some of the detail differences, and I'll start with a complex one in the hope that someone else will know something! At the front of the loco was the radiator, with a grille each side and a fan on the top. We'll come to the radiator grilles later. Underneath the radiator, on the left hand side of the loco, was the generator, belt-driven from the end of the engine. Below the radiator grille on the left hand side, some locos had a removable access panel for the generator, some had a small grille, and some had plain sheeting. In black livery, the difference between these is more obvious than you might think because it affects the positioning of the painted number in this area. In the other liveries, the presence of the panel itself is quite obvious. There aren't enough good photos of the LHS of the locos to make definite conclusions, but I think I've found a pattern. Have a look at this photo from Ernie, at Inchicore in the mid 1960s: Nearest, below the radiator grille, E402 has a removable panel with two handles and bolts round the edge. Then, E417 just has plain sheeting in this area, no access panel or grille. Next, E418 isn't very clear but the positioning of the number in this area suggests that it's like E417, a plain sheet. Finally, the fourth loco (unidentifiable but I can probably narrow it down to E415 or E419) has a louvred grille in this position. Careful study of many other photos has found that: In the earlier silver livery period, E403, E408 had the 'removable panel with two handles', whilst E407 had a removable panel without handles. In later years, the 'removable panel with two handles' was seen on E402, E403, E408, E410, E411, E412. E407 retained its panel without handles. E414 when new in silver had the louvred grille, by far the best view is this IRRS one by Sean O'Brien at Cork in 1961: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511885685/ I have taken a tiny crop to show the grille: E419 in black had the grille too, as did one of the locos in BnT livery (in the distance in Ernie's photo above) In later years, the 'plain sheeting' was seen on E413, E417, E418. So my assumption is that: E401-E412 were built with the removable panel. Most had two handles (possibly added a bit later to make the panel easier to hold), but E407 never got the handles. E413-E419 were built with the grille, but in most cases it was plated over with plain sheeting later in life. The basic etch comes with the grille. That can be cut out and replaced with parts (also on the etch) to represent the removable panel, with or without handles. P.S. How's my OCD diagnosis doing?

G611s arrived in green but were painted BnT before entering service?

While I'm waiting for the etch to be produced, I've been updating my livery matrix and photo lists. Here's the livery matrix for the E401 class: The liveries carried were: Silver, with large green numerals on cabsides and both ends, no snail, red bufferbeams. Black and tan, without roundel, white vee on ends and white stripe at bonnet-top, large numerals on cabsides and both ends, red bufferbeams. Black, with roundel on bonnet sides, white vee on ends, small numerals on side of cab and bonnet, large numerals on ends, red bufferbeams, colour-coded pipework Black and tan, as (2) but with roundel It appears that none were painted green. Also, attached to this thread, is an Excel spreadsheet containing links/references to over 100 photos of the E401 class, including all class members. The dates range from construction (alongside CC1) in the 1950s to destruction by gas-axe in the 1980s. Despite that range and the quantity of photos, some of the class were very camera-shy. I expect that some locos spent long periods out of use, before they were officially stopped. E401_photolist.xlsx

I think they could on the old Fleischmann V60 model because all 3 axles seem to be gear-driven. Not sure about the newer V60 models - they may rely on the rods to transmit power. My main focus for the chassis is going to be an etched one to scale, but I'll keep an eye out for RTR donor options.

The chassis is a challenge and I am proposing to design an etched chassis for use with commercially available gears such as those from High Level. It's a challenge though as there are different gauges and some people prefer compensation, suspension or rigid. I suspect I will try and cater for some options but it may be impractical do do all. I'm hoping that by the time I've built the body I will have the inspiration to design the chassis! The wheelbase is 32mm + 20mm, so potentially one could use a 4-wheel motor bogie of either wheelbase and add an idler wheelset. Another option is a German V60 diesel shunter in HO scale, this has a wheelbase of 2650+1750mm in reality, which in 1:87 scales down to 30.5mm + 20.1mm, not far off. It has rod drive but in 16.5mm gauge the rods may fit between (and be hidden by) the E class sideframes. Older V60 models can be picked up fairly cheaply and the pictured example below seems to have geared drive to all wheels so the rods could be removed. New releases are pricey! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/135522349633 Other ideas/suggestions welcome!

Thanks John, it's a very good article with lots of personal insights from operating the locos, as well as the technical history. Reading that encouraged me to model the E401 and has been very useful in relating the modifications I've observed in photos to the technical details and the reasons for them. The E401's stint on the North Wall transfer freights ended in 1974 and this work was reducing anyway with the transition from loose-coupled to liner trains. The major visible modifications you mention (exhaust/silencer cowl removal following E405's fire, also the emergency vacuum brake dump valve added following E410's collision with the buffers at Heuston while hauling the boat train, and E416's runaway with the Bell Liner) were applied around 1976, by which time many locos had been withdrawn. The mods were applied to most of those remaining in traffic (excluding E410) but that was a small proportion of the total fleet. Other visible modifications were the radiator grilles, the access panel to the generator (under the radiator grille on the LHS) and the cutouts in the bufferbeams were I think mostly done for maintainability reasons rather than fundamental design changes. I'll try to illustrate these in this thread as we go forward. Although mainly working in the Dublin area, members of E401 and E421 classes were allocated or worked elsewhere too - particularly in the Cork area which had 3 or 4 different E class over the years, but also Limerick, Shelton Abbey, Howth. They ventured elsewhere on odd occasions on trials (e.g. Newbridge, Harcourt St, Fenit, Courtmacsherry) or to rescue failed trains (Enfield), or even for filming purposes (Enniscorthy). They have been known to work passenger trains over short distances (Cork-Cobh once, and the Heuston-Dun Laoghaire boat train was in the Heuston pilot diagram at one stage).

In my mind the opens and the magnesites are in slightly different categories. The magnesites are a very niche product, their use was very limited in both geography and time and would be hard for many Irish modellers to justify. I appreciate that they were a quick win based on the existing hoppers though. I bought some when they were last very cheap, but that was mainly with the idea of using the underframes for other things and I confess they're all still in the boxes at present. The opens were long-lived, very numerous and distinctive, and found all over Ireland. Almost everyone modelling the 1940s-1990s period needs some of them. If one of the goals of bringing IRM and AS onto a common platform is to attract more people to Irish modelling, then they'll need some wagons to put behind their locos. If all the opens are sold out, there may be a disincentive to buy the new locos. There may be an argument that the most common wagons should be kept in stock, and re-run from time to time to keep it that way. The same could be said of the cement bubbles and the 42' flats - staples of the Irish scene for 50 years, very widespread and distinctive. I bought some more opens recently, before the sale, and I'm struggling to justify any more given that I don't have a layout to run them on (yet) and I am expecting some H vans and hopefully some grain vans soon. Still slightly tempted by the bargains though! I appreciate there are other concerns such as the cost of storage and the capital tied up in the unsold stock. It can't be an easy thing to manage. So thanks for your efforts and please keep up the good work!

Thanks for all the interest and support. In doing my research I was particularly inspired by these two photos in the Transport Treasury collection, which are very clear, sharp and well-lit photos of clean locos, and show the typical late 1950s silver, and late 1960s black condition: The Transport Treasury | 1001-1997 The Transport Treasury | Ireland For the cab end, and the third livery option, this shot by Jonathan Allen is also very clear: E402 - Inchicore | 1972 and E402 has moved to Inchicore. She… | Flickr There are quite a lot of photos of them after withdrawal at Mullingar, but often with parts missing, so they have to be interpreted carefully! In this photo again by Jonathan Allen we can see E403 and E408 with their final modifications - removal of the exhaust/silencer cowl and the addition of the vacuum brake dump valve pipework on the back of the cab: E403 - Mullingar | The IRRS special made a brief lunch stop … | Flickr In due course I'll post much longer list of Flickr photo links, which are very useful but many of them aren't so clear.

Many thanks - a good tip! From what I can see on the old photos, the E401 desk was significantly different from the E421 but had some common features. On the E401 etch I’ve only approximated it, I don’t have complete info and it’s not very visible though the small windows anyway. But if I go on to produce an E421 I’ll make sure I get it right. If IRM don’t get there first…

Sorry these are only good for IRRS members: https://flic.kr/p/2pwBo4C https://flic.kr/p/2pwDJsP https://flic.kr/p/2pwDJt5 https://flic.kr/p/2pwDPnT

You may have seen over on my other thread that I’ve been designing an etched ‘kit’ for an E401 class shunter in 4mm scale. I’ll document the build in this dedicated thread so that it’s self-contained and easier to find in future. I've chosen this prototype partly because I like them and there is no kit option presently available and partly because, with none surviving, I suspect they will be a less appealing prototype for IRM to make. They're not the prettiest locos either, but as the largest class of 5'3" gauge shunters in Ireland they played an important part in railway history. I've based my artwork on this official drawing, which is fairly well dimensioned and having checked them all it seems to be drawn to scale. I've also reviewed over 100 photos to work out the details not shown on the drawing, and where necessary I've scaled dimensions off the photos. So I can't claim perfection but the main dimensions are correct and we'll see in the test build whether it looks 'right'. I have designed this model for myself, it’s not intended as a commercial venture. However, I could also make the etches available to others who would like to build one. This thread could also act as a set of instructions and will give forum members an idea of what’s involved in the construction. I could also consider a 7mm scale version - I've already had one expression of interest in that and I quite fancy a big one myself. For starters, here's the etch artwork that I've sent off to be made. I should be receiving the trial etch early next week: This is just the bodywork and the 'functional' chassis will be a separate etch in a thicker material. There were 19 locos in the E401 class, built at Inchicore in 1957-1958. Most survived into the 1970s but only a handful beyond 1975, and the last one was withdrawn in 1979. The locos were all painted silver when new. From 1962, some received black and tan livery (without roundel); I think these were E402/403/405/406/412/415/419. Locos repainted from 1964 received black livery (with roundel) and this remained in use until the end. However, a few locos retained black and tan livery, and the regular Heuston pilot E402 was repainted in black and tan (with roundel) at some stage in the late 1960s and carried that livery until withdrawn in 1975. E412 also carried black and tan until at least 1975. They were primarily used around Inchicore / Heuston / North Wall, but some ventured further afield including E414 based in Cork for some time, E410 trialled at Fenit and on the CBSCR, and another on the Harcourt Street-Bray line. Latterly their main duties were North Wall to Islandbridge transfer freights, and Heuston pilots. On the challenging route from North Wall to Islandbridge, they were thrashed mercilessly and when the 400hp E class were finally replaced with 141s, the permitted train load was reduced for a loco with more than twice the power! The etch provides for several detail options to cover most of the class over their lifetime. The major visible variations are: Radiator side grilles (several variants) Small grille/panel below radiator grille on LHS (several variants) Removal of exhaust/silencer cowl on locos still in use in the mid-late 1970s Addition of emergency vacuum brake dump valve on cab backon locos still in use in the mid-late 1970s Having looked at a lot of photos of these locos and the E421s, I've come to the conclusion that there are hardly any common features between these two outwardly-similar classes. If this project works out well I could consider doing an E421 as a follow-up if it doesn't feature in IRM's plans. However, it would be almost starting from scratch rather than a few minor tweaks. Anyway, once the etch turns up next week, watch this space... Mol

Park Royal Coaches — Irish Railway Models https://irishrailwaymodels.com/en-gb/collections/park-royal-coaches

I think even on a Sunday there were more than two. But I do remember being on an RPSI Cork-Dublin railtour on a Sunday where we stopped on the up main at one station to take water, with the steam train blocking one line and the water hose across the other, for about an hour, and no other trains either way to worry about. I think I have a 1990 WTT but nothing newer.

Many thanks for the update.

I get the same. It’ll stop me ordering any more!

Photos from Ernie and Kevin Lane for comparison: How the E421 differs from the E401: 2 feet longer overall, mostly at the front The bonnet does not reach right to the front The battery boxes are mounted either side of the frames at the front The fuel tank doesn't reach so far forwards (to make way for the battery boxes) but is extended back further under the cab The bufferbeams are deeper and festooned with rivets The cab has different/bigger/more windows and I think it's a bit longer too The bonnet is lower, has a less curved top, and there is no exhaust/silencer cowl on top Many small details such as lights, grilles, handrails, water fillers are different. So although they are similar at first glance, there are very few bits of the etch artwork that would be suitable for both. However, the assembly concept could be re-used if it works well for the E401.

I haven't finalised the functional chassis yet, and it will have to be on a separate etch anyway as it will need thicker material. The wheel diameter and wheel spacing is the same for both classes, so the functional chassis could be the same. However, the E421 is 2 feet longer overall, and the proportions are different (to improve the weight distribution), so the footplate and cosmetic sideframes would be different. Also the bodywork is different. Let's see how the E401 works out. I could do an E421 version later if IRM don't beat me to it. I've just paid the invoice for the body etch; should be a week or so until it arrives. I'll start a new thread for the build.

Having shown some of the glucose containers in my previous post, here are two of the IRRS archive images showing them in the original white livery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527507088 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511556515

A few more container photos to add to the thread. First from Roger Joanes on Flickr. Just to the left of the loco's smokebox in 1964 is a pre-ISO open box container, on a 25201 series 20' flat wagon: Possibly something similar in bright red livery on an 'LB' flat in the background of this IRRS photo also dated 1964: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251291181 This is a slightly later design of open container, ISO-compatible and suitable for palletised traffic. It seems to be in black livery with a roundel on the end, and carried on a 25436-series wagon: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511479228 From ML125R on Flickr, some interesting photos around North Wall around a decade later. This one is undated but probably late 1970s. A selection of CIE open-top coal containers on the left, and perhaps a CIE 40' insulated container in grubby white just to the right of the loco: Among the CIE and Bell containers, there are several Ellerman Lines boxes in this late 1970s view: This image is dated 1984 but looks a few years earlier to me. A fine array of CIE containers of many types and sizes, as well as a lot of CTI, and a couple of MOL. A couple of the 10' bulk glucose container here: From Colm O'Callaghan on Flickr, some later images of ISO containers including some interesting ones. CIE curtain-sided boxes on the left, and note the pair of Uniload 10' on an air-braked 60' flat just behind the loco: Two photos of the open-topped coal containers; there was a variety of types of these, the older ones being 8' high and the later ones 8'6". Some may have been conversions from normal dry boxes: Super shot of an acrylonitrile tank freshly painted in IR livery: One of the less common grey 10' containers just behind the loco here: From the IRRS archive, one of the early ISO CIE insulated containers: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570887180

The E401 body etch artwork is complete and I have sent it off to the etchers for a quote.

Most interesting. Some tin vans did have some other lettering, 'GUARD' on the door and the boiler vans had 'NOT TO BE ROUGH SHUNTED' on the ends, though the latter soon disappeared under the muck. Here's some nice views from Ernie: I have also found it difficult to find colour views that are clear enough to show the lettering colour, but I've definitely seen one photo clearly with red lettering - I just can't find it now! It would be nice to know which types of vehicle had the red lettering and which had the green.

Regarding styling, the leading coach here has a lot in common with the model shown above: Well I suppose we'll just have to wait for the next IRM 'big announcement' and then be either delighted or disappointed... I reckon that silver coach on the right would follow very nicely from the Park Royals - same bogies, chassis and interior.