Mayner

Conventional timber framed coaches built 1954 onwards including. CIE began a coach building problem in 1951 initial coaches were on conventional welded steel underframes with GSR pattern bogies, changing to Bulleid Triangulated underframe with Commonwealth Bogies from 1954 onwards, examples of the Side Corridor & Buffet Cars appeared with both types of underframe and bogies, B4 replaced GSR bogies on Buffet Cars during the 60s. (a) Side Corridor Second Class Coaches (b) Buffet Car/Kitchen and Dining Cars (C) TPOs (Travelling Post Office. (C) Bogie Luggage/Brake Vans The Silver Fox CIE 1951-53 Stock are based on coaches with conventional underframes and GSR bogies. Apart from a Bogie Heating Van the Buffet Car is probably the biggest gap in terms of modelling a 70-80s Intercity set made up of conventional coaches

The ore from the Lisheen Mine going by road to Cork seems to have been a tipping point in the Irish Governments approach towards railfreight. The ore was originally proposed to be transported from Lisduff by rail. but IEs funding application (infrastructure & stock?) was rejected by the Government. Government (& EU?) had funded (grants & loansto IE) major freight infrastructure improvements during the 90s, new yards Dundalk & Bellview Port, increasing loading gauge to clear larger ISO containers and high capacity container handling equipment at all major terminals (new gantries, forklifts/reach stackers. A Government report in early 2000s was extremly critical of the profitability of IEs railfreight services and basically lead to the run down and closure of most services. A lot of money wasted, but I suppose a lot was EU funds that had to be spent

There was talk of ore from the Pallas Green ore-body being exported through Foynes or Waterford after the discovery was announced in the early 2000s, but remains un-developed possibly as a result of geological challenges which may effect the viability of developing the mine. In the mean time the expoloration/mining rights have changed hands several times since the initial discovery. I am beginning to believe that the Foynes Branch was refurbished because like the Northern Ireland Renewable Energy Scheme 'cash for ash" money was available to improve access to Foynes Port under the EU TEN-T scheme rather than to fulfill an actual need. Difficult to see Boliden Mining paying to have their ore Tara ore shipped over 150 miles to Foynes & funding a new discharge facility, when they can ship the ore 36 miles by road or approx 50 miles by rail to their existing unloading facility at Dublin Port (assuming Dublin Port restores rail link in 2-3 years time. Back in the day Tara shipped its initial output (severak weeks?) through Foynes (possibly using Mogul wagons) as a result of an industrial dispute involving redundant Goulding workers at Dublin Port. Going back to Galtemores point about the poor state of the roads and viability of rail during the 70s-80s, Gortdrum and Tynagh two of the largest ore bodies developed during the 60s shipped their ore by road possibly because its was not viable to provide infrastructure to ship by rail due to the relatively short life of the mines. Gortdrum a large copper mine located beside the Cork Line at Limerick Junction (just North of the Junction with the Direct Curve) had a working life before closure of 10 years, Tynagh a large Lead and Zinc mine located approx 10 miles east of Loughrea had a working life of approx 20 years shipped its ore by road direct to Galway port although it appears to have receeived supply by rail to Loughrea. Tynagh was estimated to have reserved of 9.2m tonnes with 7.2mt extracted during the life of the mine sending out approx 140,000 tonne of concentrates or 7,000 wagon loads/350 train loads or approx 1 train a week during the life of the mine. (based on 20T 20 wagon ore trains of the era). By comparison Mogul mine (zinc) at Silvermines appears to have had a working live of 14 years and shipped a daily trainload of ore through Foynes port (the Foynes Tippler was apparrently re-used for unloading shale wagons at the Munget Cement factory), Macobar shipped barytes ore from Silvermines to Foynes two trainloads daily for almost 30 years.

I think some of the recent posters are loosing sight of the fact that: 1. Rail is not a practicable option for shipping the ore from Tara mines during the next 2-3 years. 2. The mines closed temporarily in July 2023 because it was uneconomic to continue mining as a result of low ore prices. 3. Ore reserves are expected to be exhausted at some stage between 2029 and 2033. 4. The more direct route by the M5,M50,Dublin Port Tunnel is likely to have undermined any potential economic/environmental advantage of shipping the ore by rail. At the end of the day Boliden is likely to select the lowest cost option for shipping the ore from Tara. IEs Tara Mines freight operation are inefficient compared to the standards of the past 20 odd years! Although the Tara Mines are Ireland's heaviest trains they are light by international standards (Tara 594 Tonnes -12 wagon Kiwirail 1500 Tonnes-25 wagon (coal) Port of Tauranga-Rotowaro (Huntly Power Station) (2-3 daily) since 2004. The discharge operation at Dublin Port is inefficient (involving shunting/uncoupling of indiviudal wagons) compared to similar operations where the entire train is unloaded without the need to shunt/uncouple/re-couple individual wagons. The discharge operation at Dublin Port is constrained by restricted space, no room to install a loop to accomodate longer trains. Existing wagon fleet (owned by Tara Mines?) is largely life expired, could Boliden justify buying a fleet of new wagons for a mine thats projected to close within the next 4-8 years? Tom. I have used the Irish Road system in recent years including the Port Tunnel, M1, M50, N11 at peak times during visits to Ireland in recent years, congestion on the M50 and Dublin approach roads is little different to that I experienced in the UK or Auckland, though driving between the outskirts of the city and Dublin Port is now a picnic to 20 or so years ago before the opening of the Port Tunnel. Before I left Ireland in 2004 I spent several years working on construction projects around the M50, and in the Port and well remember the level of traffic congestion and impact on productivity.

Hi Wheelslip. I just about remember seeing wagons (all vans) at North City Mills as a kid during the late 60s, usually in my fathers car at Cross Guns bridge on our way to visit my Grandfathers (an engine driver) grave at Glasinevin Cemetery. My grandather bought a plot where the Midland passed over the GSWR line so he could whistle to his wife as he drove past on a loco, needless to say I was more interested in the railways than my grandparents. The North City Mills was abandoned and lifted when I explored the area as a teenager in the mid 70s North City Mill would make an excellent model in a compact space with its combination of stone mill buildings, retaining walls canal, bridges and abandoned canal boats. The 1960s era probabably best option for modelling the Mill with RTR locos and stock (IRM Bulleid H Vans, MM B141 & B121 Black and Tan diesels (possibly a grey B121, railtraffic seems to have ceased by the early 70s, possibly some of Leslies Provincial Wagons GN Vans (an "Irish Standard' design) also used by the Midland and GSR some of which lasted into the late 60s. The small B121,B141 GMs potentially a better option than the larger A /Ar Class for shunting the Mill, unfortunately no suitable rtr CIE shunting locos are available, though Silver Fox do a G601-3 Class not strictly correct as CIE used the slightly more modern G613 Class (vaccum brakes and different style of cab windows) as LiffeyJunction Pilot loco at one stage during the 1960s, the Silver Fox G uses a Tenshodo motor bogie which is not great at low speeds needed for a shunting loco. Possibly a Hornby Ruston Diesel or Peckett steam loco based on the scenario of Ranks/North City Mills providing its own shunting loco. The GSR/Steam would be more challenging and would involve an element of modifying rtr models, kit or scratchbuilding depending on how far you want to go or whether you have a greater preference for getting something up and running quickly or model making. In steam days the Mill was likely to have been shunted by MGWR tank locos and their Standard Goods. During GSR/CIE days steam locos appear to have largely stuck to their own territory. A J26 appears to have been the final Liffey Junction shunting/pilot loco until replaced by a G611 during the early 60s The BachmannJ72 and Hornby J83 are probabably the closest RTR British outline models in terms of size and general outline to the ex-MGWR J26 (small tanks) and J10 (Banking) Tank the modifications involve a considerable amount of work!. Eoin (ECM) Inchacore Class J10 conversion (actually looks closer to a J26) covered the conversion of the older Mainline (Palitoy) model gives an indication of the level of cosmetic work involved, but a replacement chassis unlikely to be required in converting the current Bachmann model. The Hornby Railroad J83 looks closer in size and outline to the J10 tanks used for heavy shunting and banking duties in the area. SSM produce an etched kit of the Small Midland Tank MGWR E GSR/CIE J26 but potentially challenging as a first attempted at a brass kit and based on a model of the loco in as-built MGWR condition up toaround 1912. Ironically O Gauge is probabably a better option for attempting a model of North City Mills using kit built locos and stock as Alphagraphix produce relatively straightfoirward to assemble models of the ex-MGWR Standard Goods J19 and Small Tank J26, check out David Holman's & Galtemores threads on building compact O Gauge layouts and kit/scratch building locos and stock including Alphagrapkix kits. At the end of the day the distinctive combination of canal and mill structures at Clonliffe and North City Mills would make quite distinctive models (a distinctive part of Dublins Inductrial heritage) in their own right and the trains less significant in terms of the overall model compared to say a model of a station or goods yard.

The etches have arrived from the engravers this morning, I expect to complete packing orders next week for potential delivery to UK and Ireland mid-late October. I will issue invoices once I have packed the individual orders and finalised shipping costs.

Its likely that that the requirement (if it existed) for Tara Mines to use rail transport is no longer enforcable or relevant due to the significant improvement (dual carriageway/motorway) in road infrastructure between the mine and the port since planning permission was granted almost 50 years ago. Back in the day when permission was granted rail was the only viable option, it was single carriageway all the way between Navan and the port with bottlenecks through Navan, Dunshaughlin and between Blanchardstown and Dublin Port. The opening of the M3 motorway and Port Tunnel are likely to have made road a viable option for Tara traffic.

The new IE crane is likely to be diesel-hydraulic with computerised control of the machines functions LCD display in the cab with joystick controls a far cry from the plant the 70s. The knack to hand starting diesel engines in mixers and small dumpers was to crank the handle fast enough to allow the flywheel to build up enough momentum to fire the engine without kickback, easy enough for those of stocky muscular build, but a challenge for a young tall bloke that had not put on the middle aged spread I had fun and games starting recalcitrant diesel engines on my last job in Ireland 40 years ago before I moved to London and the owner of the business re-located to Atlanta, Georgia. Construction was in the doldurms and the owner had sold off most of the plant in preparation for the move before winning a contract to develop a site for housing in Donabate and was in desperate need of a Bulldozer or Traxcavator and large tow along roller to construct an access road across a swamp to the site. The boss managed to pick up an ancient Caterpillar 951Traxcavator (crawler loader)with manualshift (from a landfill) to the disgust of our regular dozer operator Harry 'whoes" dozer had been just been exported to the States. The Trax. was sound but in need of an overhaul, and kept our fitter (bosses younger brother) busy repairing faults as we did not have time to take the machine into the shops for a much needed overhaul. The fitter and Harry developed a 'work around" to keep the job going when the Trax. starter motor failed and no replacement could be found, luckily Harry had the bucket raised when the starter gave up the ghost. We fitted a ply blankingplate to the starter motor housing (to maintain oil pressure) and two started the Trax. using the bosses almost new Nissan Patrol 4X4, the Patrol literally lifted off the gound with all 4 wheels spinning when Harry slipped in the clutch with the trax in 3rd (top) gear, but the engine of the trax fired. For the next week or so we gravity started the trax in the mornings by running it down an earthen ramp constructed by Harry, keeping the bucket raised when the machine was parked at night. We had one hickup when the trax failed to fire by gravity on morning and our clients JCB and Rough Terrain Forklift were unabe to start the trax by towing, but no problem to the bosses Nissan Patrol, which was also required to tow the Trax. whenever our fitter carried out work on the machines engine or hydraulics. We fitted a refusbished starter motor to the Trax after a week or so the end of trying to two/gravity start a 20 or so year old Cat. Our other big source of drama was with the engine of a hired in 30 ton vibrating roller towed by the Cat to form the access road, engine (3 cylinder Deutz) that powered the vibrator was originally supplied with an electric starter but no dynamo or alternator to charge the battery. The engine apparrently 'siezed" shortly after the hire company replaced the electric with a wind-up starter https://www.springstarter.com/. It turned out the engine had 'siezed" as a result of a nut becoming jammed between the starter ring gear and bell housing. The engine appeared to have been recenty overhauled and the nut may have been dropped/left inside the engine during overhaul or when the electric starting motor was replaced by the wind up starter, the particular hire company had a good range of heavy plant but a poor reputation for service and reliability. I tended to move away from the 'sharp end' of construction after I moved to England, but one urgent job I was running was delayed for a week when the 'Donkey Engine" on a piling rig owned and operated by a major British Piling Civil Engineering company blew up on the 1st day on a critical stage of a project.

As a retired Health & Safety Inspector (Irl & NZ) Mr Elfin Safety would not be interested if they came across a "ceir gwyllt" (wild car) operation unless people were paying or being paid to ride the cars. Back in the day the Quarrymen (& one Quarrywoman) were on their way home from work using their own ceir gwyllt (not legally working and covered by health and safety legislation, but if they were getting paid or the quarry supplied the car it would have been a totally different situation. https://www.vintag.es/2023/12/car-gwyllt.html First question I asked myself when attending an accident scene or responding to a complaint was whether Mr Elfin Safety, Police or Council was the regulator and try and if in doubt kick for touch It looks like the ceir gwyllt were used on one Bleanau quarry until the 1940s, it looks like the guys piling up may have been playing to the camera. Two of the remaining quarries in Bleanau largely became tourist operations by the 1980s though no ceir gwyllt re-enactment. One of the quaries takes visitors underground using an inclined cable car. In certain respects the risks involved in riding a wild car on an incline are not a lot different to motor cycle scrambling or advanced mountain bike/BMX. The Festiniog continues to operate Gravity Slate trains (loose coupled) over its main line during galas and events, with Brakemen strategically positioned in wagons throughout the train, presumably covered by the railways Safety Case.

CIE produced an A4 spiral bound book with black & white photos and outline diagrams of freight stock and containers (in use and proposed) during the late 60s/early 70s in connection with its freight modernisation scheme. Seems to have been an internal use CIE document intended for staff in the freight sector I go a glimpse of the book at an MRSI Club night 50 odd years ago, but the club does not appear to have received a copy Its possible that there may be a copy in the IRRS Archive/Library or model railway club libraries.

Don't know about other dimensions the GNSR/SECR locos had 6' driving wheels & 18X26 cylinders same as the ex DSER D8 & D9 4-4-0s & C2 4-4-2T which appear to have been a tank version of the D8. The 4 D9s were elegant locos in their original form but had the reputation of being a failure & poor steamers, although one was rebuilt with a D8 boiler, the un-rebuilt locos had all gone by the mid-30s the rebuilt loco in 1940. One of the 2 D8 was a Civil War casualty the surviving loco withdrawn in 1949. Personally I don't believe its worthwhile to pay over £200 for a loco that requires major modification or a new body/superstructure to resemble an Irish loco. Harry (GSR800) has already comissioned a 3D printed model of the rebuilt MGWR As/GSR D6 using a Hornby D16/3 4-4-0 Chassis fitted with Hornby B1 wheel sets, the Hornby D16/3 may be a workable chassis for ex-GSWR Coey D2,D10-12 family of 4-4-0 and almost £100 cheaper than the Rapido GNSR/SECR model, & re-wheeled with B1 (or heavens forbid Gibson or Magib) wheels potentiaally open up the widely used GSWR/GSR D4 family of mixed traffic 4-4-0s.

A copy of a copy so to speak, received from Alan O'Rourke many years ago under the guise of 'The Loughrea Coach?" Came in very useful when producing the artwork for the Side Corridor and BSSGV

Elephants in the room. (a) CIE leasing or selling Navan Station/Yard to a prospective Heritage Railway operator. Establishing a Heritage Railway on the Navan Branch would be dependent of the willingness of IE/CIE to enter into a (long term) agreement to lease the line to a Heritage Railway Group (possibly with Meath Co Council acting as guarantor) and to maintain main line access to the Irish Rail network. With its (near) town centre location CIE Property Group are likely to be considering the sale of Navan Goods Yard for residential or retail development. (b) GSRPS and Westrail experience with loss of 'main line" connections to their Heritage Railway operations. IE disconnecting the 'main line" connections to the GSRPS at Mallow Shed and Fenit Branch during the late 1980s and Westrail's Tuam base during the mid 1990s was a significant contributing factor in the demise of their Heritage Railway operations. Although both Groups had leased depots and negotiated line access with CIE/IE, the connection to Mallow Shed (& restoration depot) was removed in connection with the Cork-Line re-signalling, the partially restored Fenit Branch disconnected in connection with CIEs sale of the North Kerry Yard in Tralee both late 80s. Westrail operated Excursion/Tourist Trains in Galway and Mayo from its Tuam base for several years during the Mid 80s-Mid 90s, including the restoration of GSWR 90 and the operation of a scheduled steam service between Athenry and Tuam on weekends for a number of years during Aug. Westrail's operations were severely disrupted by the 'temporary closure" of the Ennis Claremorris Line during the mid-90s to provide material for emergency track repairs (mainly Mayo line). IE closed Tuam signal cabin and disconnected Westrail loco depot and sidings from the network in connection with the re-opening of the Athenry-Claremorris to Asahi traffic in 1995-6 No 90 hauled trains of hired coaches between Galway-Athenry (1? season) and Cork-Cobh (final season). Apparently Westrail Cork-Cobh services (run in connection with a festival) were not successful financially, poor passenger loadings, cost of hired IE carriages, cost of transporting No 90 to Cork, cost of lodging Westrail maintenance/setam raising staff in Cork. (c) Use of Inchacore Works for storage/restoration of locos and stock. Reason for ITG re-locating to Moyasta and eventually Downpatrick Its doubtful that IE would be willing to allow Inchacore Works to be used as a base for storing/restoring locos and stock. ITG (and possibly others) were required to remove stored locos and stock from Inchacore mid-late 2000s, land/space required for construction of "Interconnector". The requirement to remove ITG locos and stock from Inchacore lead to the move to Moyasta where it was hoped/planned to build a museum, but planning application apparrently rejected by Clare Co-Council, space then unavailable at Downpatrick. Potential way forward. I guess the first step would be to see if there is sufficient interest in this group and other Irish on-line groups interested in establishing a Heritage railway in Navan, establish a group/comittee, sound out interest groups in Navan, Council, Chamber of Commerce, Tourist promotion, Irish Rail/NTA, CIE Property Group (willingness to lease+how much?), Irish preservationists Downpatrick, RPSI, Maam Cross, former Westrail and GSRPS comittee members, UK preservation group, how much is it likely to cost? how much money is the Group likely to capable or raising each year? If you think there is enough interest and the group is capable of raising the necessary funds go for it!

Needs to be narrated in a Beara-South Kerry accent/dialect with English subtitles, back in the 90s I had a work colleague (an accountant) from Sneem who some people thought he was French! Years earlier a girl in a Dunlaoire chip shop could not understand a colleague from North Kerry when he asked for sausageandchips and asked his friend from Meath to translate and became even more confused.