jhb171achill

In original livery they did all have the lower black band, and for exactly the reason you mention.

An outstanding loco, outstanding performance and outstanding layout!

Couldn't agree more. While "rivet counting" - like everything else in modelling - is not everyone's cuppa tae, when done well it really brings a realistic layout to life.

Snipers have incredible precision too.........................

Those pics of Gerry’s are probably the single best collection of photos of that short, scenic and very interesting line.

Have a look at this........... https://webapps.geohive.ie/mapviewer/index.html

In that top (B&W) pic, the palvan seen on the left is at the end of the "new" siding shown on mjy diagram above as a dotted line. The van in the foreground is a GSR van. Note the water column, disused even then, in nthe distance on the right. Odd place for it, given that Westport station was less than 2km away. I have lately found a definitive date for the final closure of this line to REGULAR goods trains. This was Monday 1st March 1943. Thereafter, OCCASIONAL goods trains would operate on an "as-required" basis, and staff in the Quay station (which was fully staffed until then, I think with 2 people) were transferred eslewhere. In the second pic, the very low height of the platform will be noted. The station building was an odd design, more like a small country cottage than railway architecture. Single storey on the platform side, 2-storey on the other side. A very unique and interesting type of prototype for a model.

Do you mean a "C" class in "flying snail" green? .....................................................

The Monaghan one - as alluded to elsewhere, the railcar DOES appear to be in CIE green, yet no "CIE" stencil appears to be on the buffer beam. If the pic is indeed 1955, then it's a CIE railcar rather than a former GNR one painted green. If so, what's it doing there? I am unaware of ANY CIE railcar traversing the GNR in GNR days. If the pic IS later, and the railcar is an ex-GN one repainted, then it's almost certainly that 2-car AEC which the IRRS had on a farewell tour in 1960. And if that is the case, either the "CIE" stencil is covered in dirt, or they have not yeat applied it - by 1960, the latter is highly unlikely. The pic of INWR 44 (GN37): note that it is shunting a distictive BCDR covered van.

West Clare, yes. Possibly a GS rebuold too, but (a) certainly not C & L, and (b) looks to be too large a loading gauge, and possibly chassis length (?) for T & D. My money's on West Clare.

Not sure how they dealt with wheel play! I believe that in this diagram it’s in its final form in the 1950s. Like other NCC stock of older age, it kept its BNCR numberplates.

Correct! False economy having so few.

Hi Sean, yes, keep the questions coming! That was the original MGWR plan, but a further siding was added later, as shown dotted in this diagram. In the very last days, only the sidings each side of the right hand (ex-cattle) platform were in use, the line down to the harbour having been lifted the 2nd or 3rd time I saw it, c.1973/4.

Scumbags. IE need snipers to deal with these morons.

Before I start, MODS - there was some time back a thread where drawings / plans of locos & rolling stock could be posted; what follows better belongs there. I can't find it, so perhaps you might lift all this and deposit it under a more logical heading? Anyway; I came across this, which may be of interest. It's a Belfast & Northern Counties six-wheeled open wagon, which would make a nice addition to any NCC / UTA layout. These were not all that common - obviously the standard four wheelers were more common, but the NCC and GNR(I) seem to have had somewhat more six-wheeled opens than other railways. While GNR ones were to conventional design, the NCC ones were a throwback - like many of their wagons - to a quite antiquated BNCR design. The Irish wagon scene is thankfully getting much needed attention these days, with IRM, SSM, Provincial, KMCE, IFM and other manufacturers making (primarily) kits. However, for all too long it was the neglected child - while we (rightly) drooled over loco offerings and coaches, we'd see layouts with repaints of BR wagons, which in almost all cases - including their pre-grouping ancestors, are no more like Irish designs than an ICR is like "Maedb", or a bubble wagon like a Donegal railcar. A few years ago, we saw Nelson, of this parish (where are you, Nelson?) produce some excellent scratchbuilt NCC wagons, but apart from that, any replication of the very unique goods stock of this system has been left to Provincial's brown van, and little else. Northern goods stock is overall a neglected thing - many BCDR wagons were also of designs simply not seen elsewhere. So here is a six-wheeled NCC wagon, examples of which outlived the BNCR into LMSNCC and early UTA days. Jhb171senior had them rostered on ballast trains on the NCC in the 1940s.

Yes, the red lining applied to a single loco, and only for about 18 months and on one route only! If you go for this, or a green livery, then pale green numbers are OK. If you go for ordinary plain black or grey liveries, yellow numbers and light green snails.

Hi J-Mo Liveries for those locos were as follows: Building date (1925) up to 1945: all were plain grey. No snails, obviously, as this was GSR days. Between 1945 and 1949, most - possibly all - were repainted standard CIE green, lined black and white. It is possible some stayed grey. 1949 - approximately 1955/6 - it seems that at least a few were either repainted plain grey, this time with a "snail", or else just had them added, never having been repainted green at all, though I suspect the former. Some time in the mid-50s, some were repainted black, I am not sure if any got a green repaint, as any remaining in green livery towards the end of the 50s were so very badloy worn, faded and filthy it was practically imposible to tell how they'd been painted. The "glossy black" one was a complete one-off - not just for the class, but for the whole of CIE, and for one very specific duty - the Cork-Rosslare Boat Train. However, this was very short-lived, as diesels took over and the loco went back to humdrum duty for a short time before being scrapped. Livery details: GREY - GSR: All over, smokebox, wheels & cab roof included. No markings on tender. Loco number on cast metal plate, with same grey background but numbers picked out in pale yellow usually (a few exceptions). GREY - CIE: Same as above, except loco number plates replaced by pale yellow numbers painted on cabside, and pale GREEN (eau-de-nil) "snail" on the tender. The "snails" were transfers, exactly same as my avatar logo here - which is a pic of one, and were thus lined in gold. Painted cabside numerals were not lined. GREEN - CIE: Green livery on loco and tender, including wheels. Details as on "Maedb" in Cultra, or any of Drew Donaldson's models - black and white lining. Same pale green "snail" on tender, but cabside numerals also pale green, and lined, if on a green loco. BLACK - CIE: Plain black all over, as with the grey livery, no relief at all. Pale yellow painted cabside numbers, pale green snail on SOME tenders; some CIE steam locos that were repainted in the last few years didn't have snails on tenders at all (a la GSR) while some did. "ROSSLARE" UNIQUE BLACK LIVERY: All black, single red lining. Pale green snail on tender, but pale green instead of yellow cabside number. It may be noted that in all circumstances above and elsewhere, yellow "snails" are never correct for loco tenders, white still less so! Always pale green, lined. I put up a post here ages ago, which I can't find right now, giving details of what 400 class and "Woolwich" locos had grey, green or black in the 1950s. In the case of "Woolwiches", while officially the policy was for these to be green after 1945, photographic evidence indicates a mixture of green, grey or black, so whichever is appropriate will depend on which loco number you're modelling. Hope that's of assistance!

I've heard the "cat" story, Minister, indeed - though while many corroborate it, no hard evidence appears to exist to support it. CIE did indeed hire consultants about their image - an early example of such a strategy - and several American railways had colour schemes based on the same or similar colours which looked very striking. The idea of looking outside Ireland for livery ideas was nothing new. Inchicore had as good as copied LNWR lined black, down to the red-backed numberplates, between about 1895 and 1915, when the all-grey appeared. The GNR outright copied the English GNR in loco livery, and also coach livery. Even the GSR looked across the pond at the GWR for its 1926-34 "main line" chocolate and cream livery, and the LMS for its post-1933 mid-maroon. The verdict has to be that either of these ideas, both, or even neither, are possible! I am unaware of any definitive record of who made the decision, and why. The only thing I recall hearing years ago is that the black'n'tan had been considered for buses too, but someone, somewhere hadn't liked that idea. The red and cream chosen was reminiscent of the livery of the old Irish Omnibus Co., which itself morphed (without change of livery) into the GSR bus services. The navy and cream Dublin city bus livery could well have come from an old Dublin tram livery / GNR bus livery as inspiration.

I suspect that like "Enterprise"-liveried 201s, no two were alike in that regard! I don't think there was a specific date with a specific livery change, as such. When any individual one gained its lower black band, I am afraid I haven't a clue........ It could be a bit like the "tippex" lines, IR logos and day-glo panels on the ends of A's, 121s and 141 / 181s in the 1987-mid 90s period. While officially the livery WAS "supertrain" with CIE wheel and no white lines, or - full "tippex" with IR logos, hybrid versions appeared, with CIE "wheels" being replaced by IR logos, but no white lines - on some - one at least with IR on the sides and CIE on the ends, or the old one simply painted over. Livery change periods are always of great interest to modellers; witness the UTA putting "wasp" stripes on some GNR units while still in GNR navy & cream, or paininting out GNR lettering on same and putting UTA "red hand" crests on them again while still in GNR livery. CIE slapped plain dark green paint on some secondary stock in the mid-50s with neither snails nor lining, just as short-term measure. Some 121s and 141s had the day glo panels at the ends, some didn't. No rhyme or reason. In the sixties, some As and Cs had yellow patches on the ends, some didn't. For the Dutch vans, pick a date you like and a van number you like, and copy from a photo, if strict accuracy is desired.

I have long held onto my own principle that I will refuse point blank ever to travel by any means of transport with graffiti on it. I don't care if the taxi is 40 times the price. Greek and Italian stock looks disgusting.

Personally, I'd throw the book at them, hard.

VERY much so. Personally, if I was a judge, I would be exceptionally hard on graffiti vandals. Totally right! “Suspend” it and it gives them more time to vandalise something else!

Superb concept, superb operational potential. Looking forward to this.

That stonework is sublime! Worth the effort.

Indeed; excellent book.