jhb171achill

Forgot to add, Patrick, in terms of what coaches were green during the "yellow patch" and "plain" black liveries, a reasonable rule of thumb might be, for ALL types of coach other than Cravens: 1960 Most green, a few silver 1961 Most green, silver very rare and mostly confined to tin vans and a few mail vans 1962 As above, silver very rare 1963 80% green, 20% black'n'tan (End of six-wheelers / start of Cravens which were BnT from new) 1964 60% green, 40% BnT 1965 25% green, 75% BnT 1966 10% green, 90% BnT 1967 5% green, most BnT 1968 Very occasional green, mostly an old mail van or tin van - virtually 100% of all stock BnT 1969 All BnT - Last of the all-black and yellow-patch liveries. 1970 All BnT 1971 All BnT 1972 onwards - all BnT except the new A/C (Mk 2) stock; this was the dawn of the "orange and black" era, and the "Supertrain" livery.

Latterly, to Cabra, but in days past for export too, from North Wall and Maysfields in Belfast, where “Central” Station is now.

I’ll be going through this collection over the winter. It’s not indexed or catalogued, shoe boxes full of old prints, in all sorts of shapes. Some notes of some of it. You’ll get a UTA “Jeep” and then a Dublin tram.... Mostly “grey’n’green” era CIE, though, very appropriate for this thread. As I mentioned, it has to be said that few of the images are much good, so much sifting is necessary! The vans you mention obviously started life in grey. From about 1963 or so they started adding the yellow and black “wasp stripes” to the duckets, with black above and below them. Like everything else they only started painting them brown in 1970, but you are right in that they seemed to repaint more of them, and quicker, before the end of loose-coupled goods in ‘76. By the end, very few vans were still grey. I only ever saw one at that time, in Heuston goods yard (I think) about 1974/5. Green coaches were - in lessening numbers - a feature until c.1967/8, and that did overlap with the “yellow patch” livery.

Hi Hexagon These trains were made up largely of laminates of several types built between 1951 (pre-“laminate” construction but similar appearance) to 1959/60. I have a pic somewhere of the inside of one of the studio coaches which was (in this case) an old wooden GSWR coach. I’ll try to find it. There might have been an odd Bredin among them, but Park Royals would be less likely. The dining car could be an old GSWR one, or one of the new 2400 series. A “tin van” or maybe a couple of them typically took up the rear. A train of this nature would be nice behind one of the forthcoming “A” class. Motive power would be a specially cleaned up “A” for these. Like steam engines, Crossley “A”s didn’t stay clean too long but these trains (which I very vaguely remember) were pristine. Naturally, loco and coaches at the time you mention were green. You mention timetables. If there is any year you’re interested in, PM me and I’ll scan images of it to you.

So THAT'S where grandma went......

Bob was a great man for tales of the past....a fascinating character. The few times I spent a very long time on the phone with him I scribbled down as many notes as I could of what he said! There's a load of his fascinating material in the IRRS, thankfully.

THAT's it! Yes, I remember them well. Just not on the railway! I had an uncle who was a sales rep for Castrol, so these things stick in my mind...........

Fascinating pic - and is that a line of B & L narrow gauge open wagons in the background? I remember Lobitos well - I think I recall petrol station signs - did they do petrol as well as oil? Burmah was very much a "high street" petrol station brand in the 1960s and 70s, along with "Mex", "Shell" and "BP", and if we go back to the early 60s and before, "MS" (Munster Simms). MS had yellow and grey signs.... Lobitos products were never carried by rail in Ireland. As mentioned above, the CDR carried some - I think they had up to five tank wagons, and these were numbered in a series the same as the several that the GNR had. With these small few exceptions, transport of petroleum products in tankers in Ireland was very much rarer than in Britain. Oil in canisters used to be carried, at one stage, in open wagons.

I'm a filthy little boy, Ken. Naughty me! Old B & W pics of GNR blue locos show what appears in one to be almost black, and in others light grey! Grey and blue seem especially prone to this. On the basis that the German tank above is shown pretty much accurately, it's a bit on the dark side. However, when a grey loco was weathered, it could end up looking almost that colour - and the reason? They "cleaned" them with filthy oily rags!

Recent posts have touched on all sorts of matters related to the much-awaited grey 121s appearing, plus the rest of them; what train consists are realistic, tin vans, livery mixtures, what ran with what, good stock, and the big issue of the sheer variety of what was to be seen on the railway in the 1960-70 period, or - to put it another way - into what environment did grey 121s appear. This applies, of course, equally to the forthcoming silver, green, black, and black'n'tan "A" class - and for those who have the likes of their Silverfox cousins, B101, "G" and "C" classes. The first thing - for modellers who have had fewer birthdays (and decades!) than I, is that the entire railway system changed more in the early 1970s than even at the end of steam. Block trains of uniform stock only then appeared and became the norm; a concept totally unknown when the first 121s roared up to Dundalk with a good train (they worked goods before they ever worked passenger!). Sidings and small stations dramatically reduced and eventually vanished. In both goods and passenger trains, barely two vehicles were alike, such was the huge variety of stock. Unlike today, when each type of train has different couplings, ALL railway vehicles, north, south, east and west, used exactly the same couplings, so the idea of incompatibility between couplings simply didn't exist. At all. If a modeller had limitless skill, limitless time, limitless budget and limitless imagination, it would still be a hard ask to reproduce this period in all its detail. So I thought I'd fish out a few more pics as well as the ones I posted during the lockdown, but with more of an emphasis on the 1960s - the period when the "grey'n'green" era would morph into the "black'n'tan" era. My earliest railway memories belong to this time, and thus is my preferred period, but the real point is that opinion or not, this was the most varied time in the railway - arguably ever. Many books are full of photos of the time, and I would recommend detailed perusal of photos in them all - always look what's in the background! To try to cut through a mass of information for modellers who get the grey or black'n'tan 121s, and who get the pre-"supertrain" liveries on the IRM "A"s, a few simple broad pointers, first - exceptions existed, but this gives the broad gist: Timeline 1960 "A" and B101 classes dominate most main line goods train, with AEC railcars dominating most passenger trains, though loco-hauled too. Some steam still, mostly on branches like the North Wexford, Ardee, Ballaghaderreen, Ballinrobe, Kenmare, and Loughrea. Almost no regular steam anywhere else, though ballast and (seasonally) beet brings them out of the woodwork. They almost all look extremely run-down. Many six-wheel carriages are still in use - the passenger brakes being mostly GSWR, and the passenger-carrying ones mostly Midland. The vast majority of these six-wheelers are in Cork, and used on Cobh commuter trains at rush hour, and summer Youghal excursions. All goods trains are loose-coupled, and shunting and spare locos are based all over the place, with many steam sheds still being open to cater for them. All wagons are grey, without any exceptions, all passenger stock is green, except for a small few still not repainted from the short-lived "silver" (which is now filthy nondescript grey), and around the former-GNR lines, and the DSER, a few ex-GNR coaches still in either brown or dark blue and cream. Everything has guard's vans. There is no such thing as air-braking, nor will there be for many years. All goods train are loose-coupled, so must have a goods brake at the end, unless it's maybe a single goods wagon tacked onto the back of a passenger train, as sometimes happened. All passenger trains will have a guard's coach, almost always a six-wheel passenger brake of GSWR parentage, or a modern "tin van". 1961 121s appear. The grey Murphy ones! They will retain this livery for a few years, with repaints to black'n'tan between 1964/5 and about 1968. So, a clean 121 will have green coaches and loose-coupled wagons with guard's van. Other diesels are a mixture of either silver or green. 1962 Towards the end of the year, a decision is taken to bring in the black'n'tan livery, which has been applied to a few coaches. 1963 The 141s start entering traffic, and a major drive appears to take place to repaint carriages in black'n'tan. The last passenger-carrying six-wheelers are withdrawn in Cork in the spring, leaving about six or seven full-brake six wheel coaches in the new livery; the last of these will survive until 1968/9 on the Galway line. Working steam comes to an end after 129 years. By this stage, steam working has actually become extremely rare, with the few branchlines where it eked out its last days now closed or made goods-only. B101, E, A & C class locos start being painted black'n'tan; after a while, some will be repainted all-black, and after that some - but not all - of the A & C classes will get the yellow patches. The new "Craven" coaches appear; at first, and for a good few years, they will only be seen on main lines. Thus, laminates and Park Royals, plus still a few wooden bogies and Bredins, provide the stock for the majority of trains, and all secondary services. 1964/5 By now, something over half of the passenger stock is in the new livery, the rest green; thus, a grey 121 will need at least SOME green carriages! Many tin vans retain increasingly shoddy "silver", others are green, and others again in BnT. All good remains loose-coupled, and the "palvans" are introduced. 1967 The 181s appear. By now, the very first cement bubbles do too - they run a few at a time in ordinary goods trains, or as a set - but not in braked block trains - thus, a guard's van is necessary with the initial (grey) ones (as it is with beet trains!). Talking of which, open wagons are now about two-thirds "Bullied" corrugated types, with the rest wooden-sided traditional ones, mostly of 1940s Inchicore construction. 1969/70 It's beginning to look more modern now. The 4-wheel "back-to-backs", containers, and the longer-wheelbase four wheel flats are appearing. The re-engining programme is making B201s out of the "C" class, and AxxR out of the "A" class, with the all-black loco livery finally disappearing in favour of everything being variations (high and low waistband) of black'n'tan. The new NIR "Enterprise" heralds the first example of British-outline standard trains of a same type of coach. The bubbles are being repainted orange body and grey chassis, with the newest ones delivered that way, and containers are becoming more common. The die is cast; in only 2 years' time, we'll have the Mk 2s and "supertrains". The wagons start being repainted brown. By the end of loose-coupled trains in 1976, about two thirds were brown, the rest still grey, with even a tiny few still with flying snails. BR and Dutch vans start appearing; now, the tin vans start retiring. The last will still be in use on Ballina - Limerick - Rosslare in 1976/7. But for the 1960s they really ARE needed! Liveries Apart from details mentioned above, the simplest summary would be: A, C, B101: Silver new, repaints into green from 1958, with the last few C's entering traffic green. 121: Grey and yellow at start - first to be black'n'tan 1964 or 5; last about 1968/9. 141 / 181: Black'n'tan from new. 1412s have no CIE badge when delivered (the "roundel" has not yet been invented!) but the 181s do, and at that stage they start putting them on the 141s too. Oddballs: The three E401s / G601s - silver, green, black. Never black'n'tan. The seven G611s - black or black'n'tan always, never green. E421s - black or black'n'tan always. The "K" class - GNR navy, then CIE green, then all black. Carriages: Sixwheelers - all green to the end (1963) except for the half dozen full brakes which stayed on during the 60s - they got black'n'tan by 1964. Wooden carriages - those in traffic got black'n'tan by 1968 or were scrapped. Bredins, Park Royals, all the many types of laminates, Cravens - all black'n'tan. First ones 1963, last green ones about 1967. Wagons: Grey. Nothing brown at all until 1970s, thus long after grey 121s were black'n'tan. Train Consists Now, these are TYPICAL: by NO means exhaustive, as readers will appreciate! Passenger trains Main line: 121, Crossley "A" or 141, maybe nine carriages plus vans: Tin van Laminate Craven Laminate Park Royal Craven Craven Bredin Laminate Tin heating van Mail van extra? Bogie of GSR or early CIE origin. Secondary or branch line: Two to five coaches plus tin van. Coaches will be old wooden bogies, laminates, Park Royals occasionally, or laminates of various types. Greater number of still-green stock! Loco - "C", 121 or 141. Goods: Mostly "A" class, green or black. Old guard's vans gone by about 1964, with standard CIE 20T and 30T types all over the place. Last GNR ones scrapped, not that CIE ever used them much! While many modern layouts have the various types of modern bright yellow maintenance train consists, in the 1960s all PW and maintenance stuff was - you guessed it - grey! BUT - sadly - instead of a train of pristine HOBS, I've yet to see modelled that all-too-familiar sight coming out of a junction in the 1960s - a dirty "C" class with the LIFTING train from a closed branch: The following from a large amount of new material that I am going through, and will need a decent quality scanner and printer for: (All pics P Dillon Collection) It is THIS world into which the brand new grey 121 class "yanks" appeared. How very different from the world they left about fifteen years ago. The very last photo shows a scene so rare, it may be unique. A NEWLY-PAINTED grey J15 in Cork - one of the last few steam engines painted, and which would be scrapped only months later, with a GSWR bogie in quite new black'n'tan. The first black'n'tan stock appeared only a year or so before the last steam engine was withdrawn. In this instance, the steam engine is on shunting duties. See how clean "new" grey paint looked!

Yes - look at the buffer beam, which was RED! If anything, some CIE locos got into even WORSE state than BR - and that is saying something..... I don't know if anyone remembers that at one time I posted pics of a model my grandfather made using actual Inchicore paint. To show how light can show it up differently, I took a pic of it in sunny daylight, shaded daylight, and (in the house after dark) artificial light. All looked different - but there's only one "real thing", whatever light, photographic techniques or weathering does to it. Many modellers prefer their models to be pristine, and many others prefer them prototypically filthy - though it will be a brave person who weathers a new Murphy 121, I would think! Tis up to the individual.

Indeed - it is a good match. The colour used by Roderick on the 00 Works models wasn’t just a “close” thing - it was exactly matched with the real thing, an actual sample of the GSR paint. Phil’s model looks to me to be the same. Most confusion over the shade stems from filth in day-to-day use, and occasionally the accuracy of the (manually set!) exposures in old photos. The model looks superb! Weathering, of course, is obligatory on any steam loco, and a grey livery like that would be very susceptible to it I recall Senior commented several times on how light an ex-works engine looked compared to a well-worn one.

6T was (as you say, at the VERY end) repainted black. It is my understanding that it was the solitary narrow gauge loco to be actually painted thus. However, coal is black, and given the atrocious external state that C & L locos got into in CIE days, if you have a loco THAT neglected, and you do t clean it, AND it spends its days hauling coal trains, and sitting attached to wagons being loaded and unloaded by hand, in windy and damp weather, with coal dust swirling about it, it wouldn’t matter if you painted it pink and white! It would still look a dirty black colour. Look at blue GNR and red Donegal engines in later days, when nobody was cleaning them. Their bright blue / red paint became so dirty that you’d swear the boilers, domes or other bits actually WERE painted “black”.....

A stunning model, David. The light weathering on it is a work of art in itself - beautifully finished.

I was informed that........ (“Too much information” ALERT!) ...... .....I travelled on it - but when I was a “bump”; a few weeks before I was born I travelled from Enniskillen to Sligo and back in Railcar “B” one way, and one of the clattery railbuses the other way. Damn. No steam. And I only got an oul “C” the day I went to Loughrea...... (No pleasing some people.....)

That’s great news, Des, thanks!

Yes, Martin, they had them when new. When second class became standard class, they got rid of them. The Cravens were originally “seconds” rather than “standards”.....

A glimpse into the world of GREY 121s: All of the following courtesy of P. Dillon collection, except the last few from a book.....: Note the very first Cravens - 1963, almost two years after the 121s were new, had a "2" on their doors - all of 'em. Also in later years of the green livery, most repaints had no "flying snails" on them. The grain van, now in CIE grey, has an "N" after the number, indicating that it is a former Great Northern one. Note new tin vans, and as mentioned before, complete realism absolutely requires these things - and (by now) absolutely neglected-looking steam engines. Who will be brave enough to weather a Bachmann "Woolwich" like the loco seen below? And, just as the rule for strict authenticity is "no black chassis", it is also (pre-1970), "no brown wagons"!

Exactly - any time any railway changes livery, unless they only have a solitary vehicle there will be a period when the old runs alongside the new. The period within whicvh the older dark green mixed with silver and the lighter green was 1955-63, and the period where the later green mixed with black'n'tan was 1962-67 or 68. B121, B141 and B181 class locos were variously in black'n'tan or "supertrain" all through 1972-approx.1980. For a grey 121, obviously initially when hew there is nothing BUT green, but towards the time when the last one was repainted in black'n'tan, green coaches were still about, but very few and far between. Your British "blood & custard" coaches would have run alongside a handful in pre-BR liveries, plus later, full BR maroon plus regional liveries (Western region brown & cream and Southern green).

I'm not worried about the actual model - I'm eagerly awaiting all 17 two-hour episodes of the "Unboxing" Box series. I have heard the spoiler - at 1hr, 48mins and 22 secs in Episode 16, the model moves - on actual track.

Indeed - yes, the livery mix is indeed good news - if, say, you’ve two types of carriage, but one of each green and black’n’tan, there’s 4 carriages in a train that aren’t the same!

Very good points made, John. In terms of Ireland, and especially when 121s were grey, and all but two of the forthcoming "A" class liveries were in vogue, you'd be safe without a catering car - and if you DID have one, the Silverfox one is really the only show in town right now, the 24XX series ones, which were almost the only type in use before 1972. So if a catering car is on your list, that's your answer. The reason so many trains had a genny van AND a luggage van was to have one carrying mailbags, parcels and the like. However, many trains just had the one, so one would certainly do for a shorter train. VERY long trains may have had an extra one for more handbrake power - though that is a guess, I don't know for certain. There were no Craven brake coaches, no Park Royal ones (until later days, and externally much the same), very very few Bredin types, and equally very very few Laminate types until the 1970s. The generator vans were the de facto "normal" at the end of almost every single passenger train: thus - a range of the three main types of "tin vans" is an absolute essential for IRMM at some stage! You are absolutely right in saying that "if the locomotives are made RTR then at least a small well chosen core of RTR rolling stock in appropriate liveries should be made to go with them". I couldn't agree more! And THAT would mean (a) laminate, (b) Park Royal, (c) tin vans. In all reality, any sort of rake of any carriages without those, which is behind a green or silver diesel of ANY sort, a grey 121 or an all-black A or C, simply isn't historically realistic, especially if they are all the same, don't have an appropriate van, and are all black'n'tan. I'll simply finish by saying that many aren't THAT concerned about absolute accuracy - fair enough - each to their own - it's each of our own railway, after all!

“RPM” = Retired Paddy Models....

Interesting thoughts, folks. A few comments - in terms of rakes, the mixed rake is EXACTLY what is appropriate, not uniform rakes of one type. It is important to remember that a full train of a single type of coach was almost unknown. Carriages were built in small batches, not like today - and these batches almost always had minor, and more often MAJOR, variations. Thus it was rarely remotely possible to make up a uniform rake, even if they had wanted to. This is PRECISELY the reason that the band of colour between waist and above-window-level was BLACK - to disguise the mis-matching variety. Colour-wise, up to 1966 and a bit beyond, a mix of green and black’n’tan coaches is the norm, thus one of this and one of that is quite appropriate. Again, grey 121s started out with ONLY green stock, and by the time the last of them was being repainted black’n’tan there were still a FEW green coaches about. In terms of catering and brake vehicles, it is worth bearing in mind that a 2400-series dining car would really be the only show in town. HOWEVER, the overwhelming majority of Irish trains did not have a catering service, so the inclusion of a dining car is not necessary to be authentic. Given that nobody will buy a “rake” of dining cars, it is almost certainly unviable. Finally, a brake vehicle is mentioned above. It is worth pointing out that in the period when the “grey’n’green” era was changing over to the “black’n’tan” era, almost every single solitary passenger train had the four and six-wheeled heating & luggage vans, also known as “hooded vans” / “tin vans” / “genny vans” / “hot water bottles”. Use of a brake standard coach, for example, is MUCH rarer, Thus there weren’t too many compared, say, with Britain. Carriages were ALL steam-heated prior to 1972, and a heating van was therefore necessary. The guard travelled in it too. Therefore, if modellers are serious about the very welcome development of “going forward into the sixties”, with it without backing of the manufacturing world, a “tin van” Model for the end of trains (FAR more si than a bogie brake), is absolutely essential. Bogie “genny vans” (both “Dutch” and BR types) only appeared in 1969/70 or so. So a typical, appropriate, Irish train for use with grey 121s or silver, green or black “A”s will be a mix of - Craven Laminate Park Royal Tin Van. Livery variations of the last 3 of those 4 will allow for seven different vehicles. Add another Laminate & PR and you’ve a nine coach train - away from the Belfast and Cork lines, few were ever longer. For the end of the train, as Buz referred to, tin van(s). Quite often one at each end - one heating and one luggage / guard.

And Achill and Clifden on mine!