jhb171achill

A stunning model, David. The light weathering on it is a work of art in itself - beautifully finished.

I was informed that........ (“Too much information” ALERT!) ...... .....I travelled on it - but when I was a “bump”; a few weeks before I was born I travelled from Enniskillen to Sligo and back in Railcar “B” one way, and one of the clattery railbuses the other way. Damn. No steam. And I only got an oul “C” the day I went to Loughrea...... (No pleasing some people.....)

That’s great news, Des, thanks!

Yes, Martin, they had them when new. When second class became standard class, they got rid of them. The Cravens were originally “seconds” rather than “standards”.....

A glimpse into the world of GREY 121s: All of the following courtesy of P. Dillon collection, except the last few from a book.....: Note the very first Cravens - 1963, almost two years after the 121s were new, had a "2" on their doors - all of 'em. Also in later years of the green livery, most repaints had no "flying snails" on them. The grain van, now in CIE grey, has an "N" after the number, indicating that it is a former Great Northern one. Note new tin vans, and as mentioned before, complete realism absolutely requires these things - and (by now) absolutely neglected-looking steam engines. Who will be brave enough to weather a Bachmann "Woolwich" like the loco seen below? And, just as the rule for strict authenticity is "no black chassis", it is also (pre-1970), "no brown wagons"!

Exactly - any time any railway changes livery, unless they only have a solitary vehicle there will be a period when the old runs alongside the new. The period within whicvh the older dark green mixed with silver and the lighter green was 1955-63, and the period where the later green mixed with black'n'tan was 1962-67 or 68. B121, B141 and B181 class locos were variously in black'n'tan or "supertrain" all through 1972-approx.1980. For a grey 121, obviously initially when hew there is nothing BUT green, but towards the time when the last one was repainted in black'n'tan, green coaches were still about, but very few and far between. Your British "blood & custard" coaches would have run alongside a handful in pre-BR liveries, plus later, full BR maroon plus regional liveries (Western region brown & cream and Southern green).

I'm not worried about the actual model - I'm eagerly awaiting all 17 two-hour episodes of the "Unboxing" Box series. I have heard the spoiler - at 1hr, 48mins and 22 secs in Episode 16, the model moves - on actual track.

Indeed - yes, the livery mix is indeed good news - if, say, you’ve two types of carriage, but one of each green and black’n’tan, there’s 4 carriages in a train that aren’t the same!

Very good points made, John. In terms of Ireland, and especially when 121s were grey, and all but two of the forthcoming "A" class liveries were in vogue, you'd be safe without a catering car - and if you DID have one, the Silverfox one is really the only show in town right now, the 24XX series ones, which were almost the only type in use before 1972. So if a catering car is on your list, that's your answer. The reason so many trains had a genny van AND a luggage van was to have one carrying mailbags, parcels and the like. However, many trains just had the one, so one would certainly do for a shorter train. VERY long trains may have had an extra one for more handbrake power - though that is a guess, I don't know for certain. There were no Craven brake coaches, no Park Royal ones (until later days, and externally much the same), very very few Bredin types, and equally very very few Laminate types until the 1970s. The generator vans were the de facto "normal" at the end of almost every single passenger train: thus - a range of the three main types of "tin vans" is an absolute essential for IRMM at some stage! You are absolutely right in saying that "if the locomotives are made RTR then at least a small well chosen core of RTR rolling stock in appropriate liveries should be made to go with them". I couldn't agree more! And THAT would mean (a) laminate, (b) Park Royal, (c) tin vans. In all reality, any sort of rake of any carriages without those, which is behind a green or silver diesel of ANY sort, a grey 121 or an all-black A or C, simply isn't historically realistic, especially if they are all the same, don't have an appropriate van, and are all black'n'tan. I'll simply finish by saying that many aren't THAT concerned about absolute accuracy - fair enough - each to their own - it's each of our own railway, after all!

“RPM” = Retired Paddy Models....

Interesting thoughts, folks. A few comments - in terms of rakes, the mixed rake is EXACTLY what is appropriate, not uniform rakes of one type. It is important to remember that a full train of a single type of coach was almost unknown. Carriages were built in small batches, not like today - and these batches almost always had minor, and more often MAJOR, variations. Thus it was rarely remotely possible to make up a uniform rake, even if they had wanted to. This is PRECISELY the reason that the band of colour between waist and above-window-level was BLACK - to disguise the mis-matching variety. Colour-wise, up to 1966 and a bit beyond, a mix of green and black’n’tan coaches is the norm, thus one of this and one of that is quite appropriate. Again, grey 121s started out with ONLY green stock, and by the time the last of them was being repainted black’n’tan there were still a FEW green coaches about. In terms of catering and brake vehicles, it is worth bearing in mind that a 2400-series dining car would really be the only show in town. HOWEVER, the overwhelming majority of Irish trains did not have a catering service, so the inclusion of a dining car is not necessary to be authentic. Given that nobody will buy a “rake” of dining cars, it is almost certainly unviable. Finally, a brake vehicle is mentioned above. It is worth pointing out that in the period when the “grey’n’green” era was changing over to the “black’n’tan” era, almost every single solitary passenger train had the four and six-wheeled heating & luggage vans, also known as “hooded vans” / “tin vans” / “genny vans” / “hot water bottles”. Use of a brake standard coach, for example, is MUCH rarer, Thus there weren’t too many compared, say, with Britain. Carriages were ALL steam-heated prior to 1972, and a heating van was therefore necessary. The guard travelled in it too. Therefore, if modellers are serious about the very welcome development of “going forward into the sixties”, with it without backing of the manufacturing world, a “tin van” Model for the end of trains (FAR more si than a bogie brake), is absolutely essential. Bogie “genny vans” (both “Dutch” and BR types) only appeared in 1969/70 or so. So a typical, appropriate, Irish train for use with grey 121s or silver, green or black “A”s will be a mix of - Craven Laminate Park Royal Tin Van. Livery variations of the last 3 of those 4 will allow for seven different vehicles. Add another Laminate & PR and you’ve a nine coach train - away from the Belfast and Cork lines, few were ever longer. For the end of the train, as Buz referred to, tin van(s). Quite often one at each end - one heating and one luggage / guard.

And Achill and Clifden on mine!

In all reality, if a manufacturer was to produce a RTR version of even half of what was running in the life of the "A" or B121 class - even in the 1960s alone - there would be a "new release" from now until Donald tells the truth..... There were various types of laminates, and while less so, several variants or PRs as well, as other have alluded to above. What would be best would be maybe three or four models over a period, which along with the existing Cravens would allow MOST variants; with an accurate train being possible with one each of them, plus one Craven - in other words, the haphazard mix that was not just normal, but almost without exception. Two varieties of laminate in silver, 1955 green*, and black'n'tan. That's 6 variants of two models. One variety of PR in 1955 green*, black'n'tan, and black'n'tan with the mid-waist white line as added to no more than the last half-dozen or so of them in traffic about 1989 / 90, until the very last two were withdrawn in 1994. (One is No. 1944, now at Downpatrick). Comment was made about silver: the overwhelming majority entered service in the 1955 green* - in fact, it seems they were the first coaching stock to get this livery - and silver bogies. However, while I have yet to see any firm evidence of it, there is a possibility that at least the first few were silver - if so, they didn't stay that way long. If we discount the silver, we've three variants, one model. It is important to remember that when the "A" class were green, all coaches were too, apart from the odd old silver one. When the B121s were introduced in 1961, ALL carriages were green. The black'n'tan carriage livery appeared on a small few vehicles in 1962, but they were few and far between. It seems that over the winter of 1962/3, a concerted effort was made to start painting things black'n'tan, but by 1965, most photos show that barely two thirds of the coaching stock had the new livery - trains of 50 / 50 green / BnT, or even majority green, could still be seen. Thus, when an "A" or a "C" is carrying the all-black livery, with or without a yellow patch, or the FIRST black and tan variant, green carriages are obligatory. The last carriages in green appear to have been repainted about 1967/8, at much the same time as the last grey 121 was repainted too, and just before the re-engined "A" class "transplants" appeared. Thus, once we are running A34R instead of A34, everything is black'n'tan, but before that, and with grey 121s, something green is needed for accuracy. I digress, as you well know I am prone to do so, on livery details - but I suppose that my point is that if we ever get RTR versions or a laminate or Park Royal, and if the intention is to run them with a green, silver, black, or Crossley BnT "A" class, or a grey 121, then green variants of the RTR coach are absolutely a necessity. No grey 121 is ever likely to have hauled a train made up of nothing BUT a sleek line of BnT Cravens! (* By 1955 green I mean the lighter shade seen in recent years on the RPSI "Dublin Heritage Set", not the earlier darker green (like CIE buses, or my avatar thingy on the left. Flying snails were applied to many, but certainly not all, especially any repainted green between 1959 and 1962).

They came out of Inchicore looking very much like the above, drab as it was! Perhaps very very imperceptibly darker, but the above is as close as anyone can tell to accurate - I'm looking at an 0 gauge model in front of me painted with actual GSR paint. However - and there's always a however! - once in traffic they obviously got dirty very quickly. Cleaning was done with oily rags, and as people at Whitehead who worked on 186 in recent years will tell you, it dulls and darkens a bit in use. If we look at colour pictures of Donegal or GNR blue locomotives in their final days, you could be forgiven for thinking that the domes, and sometimes boilers, or EVEN the cab front and back, were actually black, such was the level of filth, soot and gunge on them. They weren't - they were without a solitary exception ALWAYS cherry red (CDR) and blue (GNR). Have a look at the disgraceful state that green-painted CIE locos got into in that period - especially (and surprisingly) the Woolwiches and 400 class. I have seen more than a few pictures of both of these classes where only a faint trace of lining, or a slight green tint on the tender side, gives any indication of whether they were painted grey, black or lined green. GSWR / GSR / CIE locos painted grey suffered the same fate, especially from 1955 on, when it was clear their days were numbered. Narrow gauge ones, in particular, were dreadfully neglected cosmetically. Many steam engines of all railways appear not to have red buffer beams due to filth - but they all did. Senior recalled a jaunt on the C & L, not sure when, probably late 1940s, just into CIE days. He was doing a PW survey and travelled on the footplate of the morning train to Ballinamore. He said that while the carriage and the loco LOOKED like they belonged in a scrapyard, indeed, as the longest residents there, the loco was in excellent mechanical condition, and the C & L track was very well kept indeed, right until closure. Anyway; point being - any C & L model at all can be sent to the Great Weathering Monster to do his worst! Couldn't agree more - a truly inspirational job done on a much neglected prototype! Always wondered how one of those would perform on the modern track of the IOMR. The Passage tanks were capable of 50 miles an hour - and that was on the twisty Passage line. I daresay they could do more in the right location.

WAAAAY more variants! By comparison the Cravens had virtually none! In 1965, you’d get the following in passenger trains: - Timber-bodied coaches of GNR and GSWR origin. Hardly two alike!! - Laminates of maybe a dozen different designs including several body side profiles. - Park Royals of several variants externally and internally. - Bredins of several types. - Ex-GNR coaches, mostly K15s but other variants. Livery wise, about 65% black’n’tan, the rest green though a very small number of 1956 laminates still in very shabby “silver”. And we haven’t even started on mail vehicles, dining cars, parcels and heating vans!

Wow - so it’s not just here that blind idiocy is used to take traffic off the rails and onto the road!

So many of these vids......half an hour fiddling with a box, then half an hour talking about the packing, then the model is put on a bit of track. It sits there and sits, and sits, while the commentator gives us a lecture on the GX-3452/67.09 Version 4.3 sound chip. The poor loco still has not budged. Then, the headlights go on. Still, it sits, and sits and sits - motionless. Now there is a distant recording of the real thing revving up. There will be four times the time taken to rev it up as on the real thing. STILL it sits. Next, A lecture about the spare coupling. Now we’re back to the damn box it’s in. The loco waits patiently, flashing its headlight, revving up a notch higher and hissing and grunting. It does not budge. Now, and we’re an hour and 24.56 seconds in, the model revs up again and after an eternity, BARELY, just imperceptibly starts a frustratingly, and unrealistically slow crawl out of the station at a scale 2 mph. After 11.6 seconds, it’s just about made it to the end of the platform it was sitting at, as the camera turns to our host, still prattling on about bits of polystyrene and boxes. Well, I hope you enjoyed this “Unwrapping” today, folks! Tomorrow's tutorial will be about turning up the speed control to a scale brisk-walk, and having the train move away from a platform in less than three times the time the real ones take! Thank you for watching. Rant over; I’m going for my smelling salts.......!

I’ve included a piece on the U & C in my next scribblings (“Rails Through Connemara”), as it would have headed from Clifden, somewhat north of the MGWR line, possibly through Leenane (SPECTACULAR scenery) and the Maam Valley to Cong. Now, to get it published!!!! The closedown has actually delayed it badly.

Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. Senior recalled being somewhere in the country years ago, possibly on the Blessington tram line (I don't remember), and there was a goat tethered by a rope to a running rail. Presumably the owner took it aside when the steam tram came along!

Hi Ken If you're looking at the early 30s, a six wheeler will be lined VERY dark maroon, when weathered looking like an almost Guinnessy brownish-black with a deep maroon tint; in other words, the incredibly drab "crimson lake"! (And some think that grey locomotives looked dull!) From about 1933-35 onwards, they started painting them the same as LMS / NCC / BCDR maroon. A deep burgundy red, also seen on the Clogher Valley and pre-1925 Cavan & Leitrim. If you use what modellers in England use for the LMS or (English) Midland Railway you're ok. LINING consisted of a waistline 1/4 inch yellow / black / yellow, the middle black line slightly thicker; in fact exactly what the LMS used too! Thus, if someone does press-on LMS lining, it's the same. Also, and again the same as the LMS, above window level there was a single yellow line, with another single yellow line directly below cantrail level. Crest was centred, as far as doors allowed, and each compartment door had a large yellow shaded "1" or "3" on it, almost without exception. The exception was on some older stock which even to the uninitiated was abviously all third - usually there would a crest off centre and a big "3" at an equivalent position at the other side; maybe it mightn't describe it better to say that if you looked at the side of the vehicle and divided the side into thirds visually, the crest and "3" were at the two places in between the three thirds.....of that even begins to make sense.... For a GSWR example, numbers on all doors and a crest in the middle. Unlike CIE, when coach ends were inevitably BLACK, in GSR times, coach ends were the same colour as the sides, thus, depending on whether you're in the land of 1931/32 or 1934-39, for example, the relevant shade of either crimson lake or maroon. Be prepared, of course, for coach ends to be covere in brake dust and gunk of all sorts, with the weathering merging into the nominal grey of the roof, and the nominal black of the chassis. Lining was the same on both shades. From about 1940 onwards, most narrow gauge and some six-wheel and secondary stock was turned out in unlined maroon, but same crest and class numbers on doors. This was particularly prevalent on stock repainted at Albert Quay, and possible Limerick too. Hope that helps.

Will there be black taxi replacements for the buses, for Belfast-based layouts?

Fascinating thoughts, RichL. There was also the Bessbrook & Newry narrow gauge, and you mention mixed gauge track. The Dundalk, Newry & Greenore line COULD have ended up with this, if a scheme which appeared to be very near to becoming a reality had progressed in (relatively late) 1909. The Ulster & Connaught Railway would have had a 300km main line right across Ireland from Clifden (had it become a transatlantic port), and Galway, up through the midlands, Co, Roscommon, and meeting the Cavan & Leitrim end-on at Dromod. From Belturbet it would head in a north-east direction, meeting the Clogher Valley about halfway along its length. At Tynan, it would head across South Armagh to Bessbrook, where it would join up and a terminus in Newry would then feed into a dual-gauge section of the DNGR, to allow access into Greenore Port for Trans-Irish-Sea crossings. Had it been built, it would have passed through not one significant town en route, and would probably have been the single biggest commercial failure of any railway ever built. It is highly unlikely it would have seen a tenth anniversary, even if it HAD been built. Once the border was created it would of course have had to remain independent - mind you, had the GSR somehow inherited it, they would have lost no time in disposing of such a monumental, and useless, millstone around their necks. I am very much enjoying the above comments about your proposal. If you do like the idea of a small railways, well, you've the Dundalk, Newry & Greenore Railway, with its LNWR-esque locos and carriages - add in the Ulster & Connaught, and there's your dual-gauge scenario. A complete through journey would have taken some twelve hours coast to coast. Locomotives would be very probably something like the lough swilly 4.8.0s, and corridor carriages of the sort of dimensions of County Donegal ones would probably have prevailed.

Couldn’t agree more!!! And the endless twisted supermarket trolleys, settee cushions and burst bin liners, invasive weeds, groups of scumbags under bridges and graffiti.........!

Tis a horrible lesson to learn; with better planning I could have done a few more. My biggest regret is never doing the Derry Road. I could SO easily have done that, the Burma Road and at least part of the North Kerry..... but I wasted too much time instead.....

When you mention the mothballed South Wexford, I find it depressing to think of places that I HAVE been, which are now no longer possible and in some cases almost completely obliterated!