jhb171achill

Yes A very pale green.

Indeed - that light grey roof was a one-off variation, like the short-lived "whiskerless" green you've illustrated, but confined to the UTA. Everything CIE, be it in green or black'n'tan, always had black roofs.

That's EXACTLY what Irish carriages were like back when they WERE four-wheeled. the almost total differences with the English ones seen in Mayner's post above are obvious.

Worsley would sell a lot more if they would provide illustrations of each etch. Many people don't know what the various things offered look like, and few would be bothered researching each and every one to get a picture! ...........and BOY, were they NOISY!

I'd say so, yes; and this also represents well what would be the ultimate general type of design for Irish 4-wheelers, just before a similar stage-coach-inspired body design was slightly lengthened to produce the first 6-wheelers. The livery, by the way, is believed to have been a very dark maroon.

Is that thing DCC fitted? Mind you, a 121 could just about have hauled six-wheelers on a Youghal excursion - but only in the year 1962! However, the loco would have been grey and yellow, and the six-wheelers green. In terms of the black'n'tan full brake, one at least DID run behind 121s in both the grey and yellow, and black and tan liveries - but not, obviously, the supertrain version.

Latterly the CMDR had straight-sided six-wheelers. But any railway which operated before 1875 or so would originally have had 4-wheelers; however, as you suggest, they were very long gone from passenger use by the 1940s. A few just survived because they got stuffed into some shed or down some weed-grown siding and forgotten about; others were used as mobile tool sheds and the like in place such as Limerick Works, Waterford Yard, or Inchicore.

FOUR WHEELED COACHES IN IRELAND I’ve been asked to comment on the general subject of 4-wheel passenger stock in Ireland. Early coaches were all 4-wheel, as seen on the likes of the Ulster Railway Co., the Belfast, Hollywood & Bangor, Dublin & Drogheda, Dublin & Kingstown, Waterford & Tramore and the Cork & Bandon - as well as the bigger companies like the GSWR & MGWR in their early days (1840s-70s). However by the early or mid 1870s, six-wheelers had become the norm. Thus, four wheel chassis gave way to six wheel, long before body styles caught up - the precise opposite of Britain. Thus, as a general rule (albeit with a VERY few exceptions) it was possible to see comparatively long-wheelbase four wheelers in Britain, it was not the case here, where instead you’d see six-wheelers built in the 1870s, with small, box-like carriage body of more 1860s “architecture”. Examples: First, this 1870 standard GSWR passenger brake has the older body design, but even at that stage they are 6-wheeled. Some half dozen of these were relegated to departmental use probably before 1900, and remained as static "sheds" in various locatiuons even into the 1960s, over half a century since they had turned a wheel. Much lower than 1885-onwards stock, and box-like with small windows, a throwback to stage coach design. The last of this TYPE of vehicle would have been withdrawn in the early years of the 20th century, though the MGWR (totally different design) rebuilt a single one in the 1920s - though I believe it did not last much longer. Again, below, typical early body shape (Waterford & Tramore, 1860s) but ALREADY six-wheeled. The earliest "modern" body shapes were by now the standard 30ft lengeth (though the BCDR & CBSCR had, respectively, longer and shorter lengths of 6-wheelers) - and all coaches built after about 1880 were like this. Bogies appeared in Ireland in the 1890s. meanwhile, Britain was still building long 4-wheelers, like the hattons 4-wheelers; so for modellers, a Hrnby or Hattons 4-wheeler is too long and modern a body for the Irish 4-wheel era, and an axle short for any time after that! These are MGWR types; dimensions are more or less standard across many companies, though carriages built much after 1910 had higher roof profiles on all companies. THIS is what four-wheeled Irish stock looked like, and the body designs alone will make clear how early it was when such things were the norm. Look at the first. If the (directly) above MGWR 6-wheeler is box-like in comparison to anything post-1915, it's still cavernous compared to the lower one from the same company, about 15 years earlier. And yet, below represent the ULTIMATE development of passenger-carrying four-wheelers here. Inside, they had longitudinal benches instead of proper seats. There was a cull of these in the early to mid 1890s, with barely a few surviving into the very early 1900s. There is evidence of one, at least, being seen in Ballinrobe, Loughrea and Clifden in the mid to late 1890s. The MGWR rebuilt ONE in the early 1920s; why, or for what use, or how long in that use, is not known - but it was clearly something non-standard as this type of thing had LONG gone by then from normal traffic, even on railways like the CBSCR where much of the coaching stock were museum pieces. More typically for the 4-wheel era; this. Some of the old Dublin & Kingstown open stock (like this, or the one in Cultra) - probably about half a dozen - were retained as absolute last-resort stuff for summer excursions into the very early 1900s, while on the Waterford & Tramore one or two opens like this (though SIX-wheeled!) were in stock into GSR times - but almost never used - due to the isolated nature of this line. So, overall, the moral of the story is: if you want 4-wheelers, you're better modelling one of our very earliest railways; if you want a layout based on anything at all, anywhere on this island, post-1880 or so, go for 6-wheelers.

Yes, and there was one, or possibly two, early GSWR six-wheelers which ended their days in departmental use with the middle axle removed. I'm preparing a longer post about all this stuff. Yes, it is. It was a one-off; if one wanted to model that, the Hornby "Thomas" coach is as close a match as you'd get. Moreover, it was in departmental use possibly as far back as 1901. They did; see my post shortly. These were, however, open-sided things more Stephenson's Rocket era than anything later. I'll post a pic shortly.

Yes, they all did originally. However, they were small and box-like, and none had the "modern" type of coach body style of the 1880s onwards. Most were gone by the early 1890s. A handful survived longer, but usually not in regular traffic. If 4-wheel coaches are desired on a layout that is Irish, think more Stockton & Darlington style than 1880-1920 body style, and definitely not the long-wheelbase fourwheelers seen in Britain. The "Thomas Annie & Clarabel" Hornby 4-wheelers, being roughly wagon-length, are OK length wise, but even then the body style is too "modern" for anything that ran here. If I get a chance tomorrow I will post some photos.

Good thinking, and a logical answer; but try running that past rural Ireland! You'll encounter a cabal of Abominable No Men, the likes of which Arleeen, Wee Sommy, Wee Doddsy and Sir Sanctimonious LondonJeffrey could never even dream of!

Castlederg is one of my all-time favourites. I saw it at Cultra a few years ago.

Very true indeed. There's far too much gombeenism in this type of thing. If a farmer legally purchases a former railway, fine; the government has to buy it back, with or without a CPO, as a national interest must ALWAYS trump that of a solitary landowner, anywhere. But if he illegally occupies a railway, no negotiation - just drive the train through his cow shed and house extension and put the railway back. Better still, put the railway back before driving the train through.

There was talk of making it into - yeah, you've guessed - a greenway............

That's full brake 1077, one of seemingly only three (but possibly 4) which were repainted into this livery. This one didn't last much longer than that tour. When the term "IRM" is mentioned these days in the same sentence as the word "announcement", drooling goes into overdrive. In MY case, the showcase items would be an Indonesian B50 2.4.0, if I could get someone to make one up for me, an Indian metre-gauge YP and YG, and a South African 6J!

Agreed on all points bar one, if I may; Britain was building long wheelbase 4-wheelers of a similar (thus modern) body design well into the 1890s, by which time we had long stopped, and gone from 20-something foot chassis to 30 & 33ft. The four wheelers we had were not only much shorter, but of a much more primitive design. I will post details tomorrow. Thus, in Irish terms, neither the Ratio GWR kits, nor the Hornby or Hattons 4-wheelers, would even approach the 3ft rule…… for Ireland. While SSM (and, I think, Worsley), do DNGR kits, any generic LNWR six-wheeler (not four) would be very credible as a DNGR vehicle. The Hattons Genesis vehicles are actually OK, proportion-wise, for DNGR stock.

Very much so. If they sell out, I am sure it would strengthen the case to at least be the first into the 1930s/40s livery era by doing a run of them in GSR maroon; but it needs to be borne in mind that Ireland is a small market, and but for the fact that their generic six-wheeled stock does, by coincidence, resemble GSWR stock, I doubt they'd set up the tooling and so on to do a special Irish design. No doubt this is why no MGWR six-wheelers have appeared anywhere - these are so utterly unlike anything British, even if heavily kitbashed, that they would have to be a dedicated specific tooling. I imagine that Hattons have done their market research well, though - I can't see any manufacturer releasing something they weren't sure would sell. Here's hoping, overall!

Almost certainly, yes, although as you know the UTA could throw up all sorts of weird "one-offs"; possibly it inherited this ability from its predecessor! I recall seeing the last steam-hauled Enterprise one day in the early 60s - Saloon 50 was on it. But I was a person of small stature in those days and thus could not tell what date it was!

There actually are a surprising amount of matching locos right now, though some are currently "out of print"; 1. Bachmann "Woolwich" in grey, black or green (not the version with red lining) 2. 00 Works J15 - rumour is of another batch? 3. JM Design 2.4.0 and 4.4.0 kits 4. SSM J26 0.6.0T kit 5. Silverfox C and B101 if they are silver or green (just repaint the grey roof they come with!) 6. IRM "A" in silver or either green livery. Of the above, all but (3) and (4) are reday to run; in the case of the Silverfox ones, can be had as a kit OR ready to run. As a wild card, the Foynes branch, now much in the news, had a "G" with an old MGWR six-wheeled brake third for a while just before it closed. Different type of six-wheeler of course, but Rule 1 can apply! A jaunt from Foynes to Limerick behind a trundling G along that line in a rickety old wooden-seated MGWR six-wheeled brake third must have been quite an endurance test to the public.....but wouldn't WE love it, sore posterior quarters an'all?

They're nothing like a GNR design - however, if you ignore different panelling, they're certainly much more appropriate to a DNGR design that GNR! Yes, in the right livery (and in this case, suitably weathered!)......

Thank you, David, much appreciated. yes, each one does have a different number. If they all sell well, who knows - I'd certainly be up for a GSR version!

They're stuck behind a failed empty cattle truck special near Donamon....loco's got two burst tubes.

That colour is perfectly correct, whatever it is.

This promises to be a good one! Looking forward to seeing how it progresses. I've a small pot of GSR grey paint here if you want it in that livery, but being suburban locos, they also carried the lined green (same as Hatton's dark green coaches) livery from 1948 until scrapped.

As far as that chassis is concerned, J-Mo, I reckon it would suit that GSR tank loco more than well enough. If you were able to do a 3D print if you got the drawings, it would be very well worth looking into. I was thinking more along the lines of what would be involved converting the body of that LNER loco.