CIE 6 wheel coach numbering

[NirateGoel]

Hi all,

Just looking for a bit of information regarding the numbering of 6 wheel coaches in CIE passenger service.

• What range of numbers were used?  
• Was there a pattern to the numbering, or was it somewhat random? (E.g. 1st being one range of numbers, 3rds being another range, etc.)
• Any suggestions for suitable numbers for 4 wheeled coaches? (yes I know not prototypical blah blah blah)

[Westcorkrailway]

6 minutes ago, NirateGoel said:

Hi all,

Just looking for a bit of information regarding the numbering of 6 wheel coaches in CIE passenger service.

• What range of numbers were used?  
• Was there a pattern to the numbering, or was it somewhat random? (E.g. 1st being one range of numbers, 3rds being another range, etc.)
• Any suggestions for suitable numbers for 4 wheeled coaches? (yes I know not prototypical blah blah blah)

@jhb171achill did a good thread explaining the difference between the numbers on 6 wheelers 

 

I remember that the letter detiermined there origions (coaches marked B came from the CB&SCR) ect.

[jhb171achill]

8 minutes ago, NirateGoel said:

Hi all,

Just looking for a bit of information regarding the numbering of 6 wheel coaches in CIE passenger service.

• What range of numbers were used?  
• Was there a pattern to the numbering, or was it somewhat random? (E.g. 1st being one range of numbers, 3rds being another range, etc.)
• Any suggestions for suitable numbers for 4 wheeled coaches? (yes I know not prototypical blah blah blah)

Numbers allocated at the amalgamation in 1925 by the GSR remained unchanged throughout CIE times.

Ex-GSWR carriages, numbered from 1 to 1290-something retained their numbers unaltered. Former Waterford, Limerick & Western Railway stock had already been taken into GSWR following that earlier amalgamation in 1901; all ex-WLWR stock was renumbered by the GSWR in the 900 to low 1000s series. Thus, a WLWR coach numbered, say, 98, might become GSWR 904 (numbers made up!), which would still be 904 as a "GSWR" vehicle after the 1925 amalgamation, and would retain that number up to scrapping in a weedy siding in Mullingar in 1962!

Since four wheeled carriages like the long-wheelbase British ones never ran here at all, numbers for any ration 4w kits can be anything you'd prefer. Shorter wheelbase four wheelers on all lines here died out by 1890, bar about a dozen on the Midland which survived into the first decade of the 20th century; I believe a single one lasted until the 1920s - however, these were of a design no more like anything you can get in kits as ICRs are to an Australian coal wagon! However, I would give a 4-wheeler a random low number. If it is the Ration kit you're thinking of - and that's simply an assumption of mine - it is of a GWR prototype with bowed-in ends, like many Midland of England / LMS carriages, and more than a few on the Somerset & Dorset. While curved-in ends were commonplace in Britain, especially on the GWR & LMS, they were entirely unknown in Ireland apart from the WLWR - so if you're getting something like that, I'd be inclined to take it as a former WLWR coach, thus no letter suffix as it would have become GSWR stock in 1901. Number it 900-something....913, 908, 922, etc.

Ex-MGWR carriages also retained their numbers, with "M" added; thus a MGWR coach numbered 67 became 67M. the MGWR had a separate numbering system for each TYPE of coach, unlike the other companies. Therefore, there could be two carriages with the same number in a train, one being first class coach No. 14 (say), and next to it third no. 14. 

Ex-CBSCR stock gained the suffix "B" (for "Bandon"). Railwaymen in those days referred to the lengthily-titled Cork, Bandon & South Coast Railway simply as "the Bandon", as they called the Great Southern & Western the "Southern", and the Midland Great Western Railway the "Midland".

Former Dublin & South Eastern stock had "D" added - again, what the DWWR / DSER had as coach no. 34 was now 34D.

In the offchance you're doing the Waterford & Tramore, the suffix is "W" - but little or nothing of W & T origin remained on that line following an influx of second hand GSR & GSWR stuff.......

Hope that helps!

[Lambeg man]

The full list for CIE carriage number prefixes and suffixes (all are suffixes unless otherwise noted) which indicated the origin or purpose is as follows:

A - GS&WR vehicles confined to departmental use only

AM - Ambulance Coaches

B - CB&SCR (as already mentioned by JHB)

C - West Clare (Narrow Gauge)

D - D&SER

HC - Holiday Camping Coaches

J - Timoleague & Courtmacsherry

K -  Cork & Muskerry (Narrow Gauge)

L - Cavan & Leitrim (Narrow Gauge)

M - M&GWR

N - GNR (in addition to which a prefix 'C' was added)

O (Prefix) - GS&WR locomotive coal wagons (which were numbered in their own series)

P - Cork, Blackrock & Passage (Narrow Gauge)

PXP - Vehicles not fit for traffic, but used as mobile stores

R - Cork & Macroom Direct

RS (Prefix) - Radio Studio Coaches

S - Schull & Skibbereen (Narrow Gauge)

S (Post 1964) - Secondary Coaching Stock

T - Tralee & Dingle (Narrow Gauge)

V - Could appear anywhere on the bodywork to indicate scrapping has been recommended

W - Waterford & Tramore

X -  Could appear anywhere on the bodywork to indicate scrapping has been approved

XP - Non-passenger vehicle that may run in a passenger train

 

Source: IRISH RAILWAYS TODAY (1967)

 

[jhb171achill]

44 minutes ago, Lambeg man said:

The full list for CIE carriage number prefixes and suffixes (all are suffixes unless otherwise noted) which indicated the origin or purpose is as follows:

A - GS&WR vehicles confined to departmental use only

AM - Ambulance Coaches

B - CB&SCR (as already mentioned by JHB)

C - West Clare (Narrow Gauge)

D - D&SER

HC - Holiday Camping Coaches

J - Timoleague & Courtmacsherry

K -  Cork & Muskerry (Narrow Gauge)

L - Cavan & Leitrim (Narrow Gauge)

M - M&GWR

N - GNR (in addition to which a prefix 'C' was added)

O (Prefix) - GS&WR locomotive coal wagons (which were numbered in their own series)

P - Cork, Blackrock & Passage (Narrow Gauge)

PXP - Vehicles not fit for traffic, but used as mobile stores

R - Cork & Macroom Direct

RS (Prefix) - Radio Studio Coaches

S - Schull & Skibbereen (Narrow Gauge)

S (Post 1964) - Secondary Coaching Stock

T - Tralee & Dingle (Narrow Gauge)

V - Could appear anywhere on the bodywork to indicate scrapping has been recommended

W - Waterford & Tramore

X -  Could appear anywhere on the bodywork to indicate scrapping has been approved

XP - Non-passenger vehicle that may run in a passenger train

 

Source: IRISH RAILWAYS TODAY (1967)

 

Under "A", it was not just ex-GSWR stock used for non-traffic purposes - it was stock from ANY company. many crew vans in PW trains numbered in the "A" series were old MGWR six-wheel coaches, including both at Downpatrick and the ones in Whitehead and Clifden.

[jhb171achill]

I’ve just spotted a second error in that list, regarding the “C” in addition to the “N” on ex-GNR stock. This was ONLY on railcar power cars. Loco-hauled coaches and wagons just had the “N” suffix.

[Flying Snail]

This thread prompts a couple of questions for you on the GSWR/GSR numbering @jhb171achill. You mention above that all ex-WLWR stock was renumbered by the GSWR in the 900 to low 1000s series. Were there any particular rules for the other number series? For instance, did they number by carriage type/function? Where any series reserved for the other acquired railways pre 1901 -  I ask because I came across two ex-WCIR third class saloons numbered 600 and 601 (thanks to a WCIR article that you provided on another thread ), so should I be looking out for other carriages in the 600 series if I was trying to track down other WCIR stock? (there was a brake third that also lasted a while under the GSWR)

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Flying Snail said:

This thread prompts a couple of questions for you on the GSWR/GSR numbering @jhb171achill. You mention above that all ex-WLWR stock was renumbered by the GSWR in the 900 to low 1000s series. Were there any particular rules for the other number series? For instance, did they number by carriage type/function? Where any series reserved for the other acquired railways pre 1901 -  I ask because I came across two ex-WCIR third class saloons numbered 600 and 601 (thanks to a WCIR article that you provided on another thread ), so should I be looking out for other carriages in the 600 series if I was trying to track down other WCIR stock? (there was a brake third that also lasted a while under the GSWR)

Basically, anything that was incorporated into the GSWR just ended up as the next numbers in their series. This would apply to WCIR stock too. The WLWR was a much larger company than anything else they inherited, so that "block" of carriages numbers was allocated. I do not know whether this was as a result of a specific block of numbers being allocated, or whether these just came next anyway. I would be inclined to suspect that latter.

Had the WLWR or WCIR survived as fully separate companies with their own numbering systems after 1st January 1925, the GSR would no doubt have kept their original numbers with a letter suffix. Doubtless WLWR stuff would have got "W", and the Tramore line would have had to make do with some other suffix! Gawd knows what WCIR stuff would have become - "W", "C" and "R" were already taken......

A quick look at my records discloses that there was "ordinary" GSWR stock in the 600 series too. There were four brake third bogie non-corridors built in 1900, and a few bogie non-corridor thirds in 1897.

[Flying Snail]

36 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

A quick look at my records discloses that there was "ordinary" GSWR stock in the 600 series too. There were four brake third bogie non-corridors built in 1900, and a few bogie non-corridor thirds in 1897.

Thanks JHB. I've come across a 4-wheel brake third with separate luggage box numbered 699 built 1894. Thats 6 years before WCIR was incorporated and as the two WCIR saloons come before it in the GSWR numbering scheme (98 places before it) I was wondering if it might be of the same providence

[jhb171achill]

4 minutes ago, Flying Snail said:

Thanks JHB. I've come across a 4-wheel brake third with separate luggage box numbered 699 built 1894. Thats 6 years before WCIR was incorporated and as the two WCIR saloons come before it in the GSWR numbering scheme (98 places before it) I was wondering if it might be of the same providence

That vehicle is a GSWR, rather than WCIR, six-wheeler which corresponds to your description, and was 699 in GSWR numbering system. The WCIR would not have over 600 coaches, so 699 will definitely not be their own number - unless - it's a GSWR built vehicle which was lent to them as new. Unlikely but possible. Also, no 4-wheeled stock was built after probably about 1870, so this one was always a (failry standard) six-wheeler. It was one of a series of nine of the same numbered 691-699. No. 699 was withdrawn in 1854, the others between 1948 and 1960; with one (691) withdrawn as early as 1925.

Another slightly different one with just two compartments and a bigger guard's area was built alongside them. Interestingly, in terms of earlier discussions about WLWR coach numbers, this thing, a one-off, was numbered 995. This gives a clue to the likelihood of the WLWR stuff just getting the next available GSWR numbers, as they were joined into the GSWR system just a couiple of years later.

 

[jhb171achill]

13 minutes ago, Flying Snail said:

Yes - I knew 699 is its the GSWR number, and I reckoned it was probably too far away from 600 and 601 in the GSWR numbering scheme to be ex WCIR.

None the less 699 is an interesting vehicle in its own right: I've attached a pic below and it looks to be a 4-wheeler .... could it have been converted from six down to four wheels at some point?

Yes, its had the centre pair taken out, very probably after withdrawal, though I am aware of one six-wheeler which had its centre pair removed apparently while still in use.

Result is, of course, a very long wheelbase for a 30ft long vehicle!

 

[Mayner]

8 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes, its had the centre pair taken out, very probably after withdrawal, though I am aware of one six-wheeler which had its centre pair removed apparently while still in use.

Result is, of course, a very long wheelbase for a 30ft long vehicle!

 

 

23 minutes ago, Flying Snail said:

Yes - I knew 699 is its the GSWR number, and I reckoned it was probably too far away from 600 and 601 in the GSWR numbering scheme to be ex WCIR.

None the less 699 is an interesting vehicle in its own right: I've attached a pic below and it looks to be a 4-wheeler .... could it have been converted from six down to four wheels at some point?

699 is listed as a 3rd Brake one of a batch of 9 coaches built in 1894 in Richards and Pender GSWR carriage diagram book.

The 9 coaches were originally built with Birdcage lookouts above the guards compartment a distinctive GSWR feature. 

I bought a copy of a GA of a WCIR 4w 24' 2nd dating from the 1880s from the HMRS, I will draw up a diagram when I get a chance, the panelling detail is unusual and quite distinctive. 

There is also a WCIR 6w from the 1890s listed on the HMRS site it would be interesting to see whether they are the same or a different design to 600-601

[Flying Snail]

Yes - I knew 699 is its the GSWR number, and I reckoned it was probably too far away from 600 and 601 in the GSWR numbering scheme to be ex WCIR.

None the less 699 is an interesting vehicle in its own right: I've attached a pic below and it looks to be a 4-wheeler .... could it have been converted from six down to four wheels at some point?

Edited March 2, 2023 by Flying Snail