MGWR Passenger and Goods Stock - is there a need?

[2996 Victor]

Dear All,

this is a tentative enquiry of my fellow modellers, and nothing may come of it. However, I'm thinking in terms of typical 6-wheel carriages and full brake, and 4-wheel goods wagons such as an open, a cattle, maybe a convertible, and a goods brake. I'm thinking primarily of 4mm/1ft scale with 21mm gauge, but of course if the designs prove feasible and can be scaled up or down, then that's something to consider as well.

I'm considering the various options for making these, 3D-printing being an obvious candidate, but also laser-cut wood similar to the freight car kits from America from manufacturers like LaBelle, Bitter Creek and Leadville.

All quite vague, I know, but at this stage I'd like to know if I'd be going it alone or if I might be over-whelmed with folks who could be interested.

Let me know!
Mark

[Northroader]

On the coaching stock side, you could have a look at the 3D prints on Shapeways/Recreation 21 site.

[2996 Victor]

28 minutes ago, Northroader said:

On the coaching stock side, you could have a look at the 3D prints on Shapeways/Recreation 21 site.

Thanks - I'm aware of these, but I've had a few items from there and, while I don't like to berate a fellow modeller's efforts, I was really quite disappointed. Some wagon bodies were significantly in error when compared to known dimensions, and the print quality was rather poor. I recently ordered a couple more items but the print quality wasn't improved.

Best regards,

Mark

[Galteemore]

2 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Dear All,

this is a tentative enquiry of my fellow modellers, and nothing may come of it. However, I'm thinking in terms of typical 6-wheel carriages and full brake, and 4-wheel goods wagons such as an open, a cattle, maybe a convertible, and a goods brake. I'm thinking primarily of 4mm/1ft scale with 21mm gauge, but of course if the designs prove feasible and can be scaled up or down, then that's something to consider as well.

I'm considering the various options for making these, 3D-printing being an obvious candidate, but also laser-cut wood similar to the freight car kits from America from manufacturers like LaBelle, Bitter Creek and Leadville.

All quite vague, I know, but at this stage I'd like to know if I'd be going it alone or if I might be over-whelmed with folks who could be interested.

Let me know!
Mark

If you are looking at a cottage industry approach, might be some mileage in offering silhouette cutting or similar of the elaborate MGW coach side panels to use as overlays in the Jenkinson style of ‘panel and box’ build. By offering such panels, a huge amount of work would be saved, as the actual construction of the coach carcass is a fairly simple task. In terms of Shapeways, my own experience has been similarly mixed! 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Galteemore

[Andy Cundick]

Quite agree about Recreation 21 their MGW brake 3rd hangs above my workbench as an awful warning about how bad things can be better approach is probably resin cast bodies.The North British Railway Study Group have done several wagons which need nothing in the way of tidying up afterwards just adding w irons and brake gear.Similarly Cam Kits do some Cambrian Locos with the main body in resin which exquisite.(just lining and lettering an "Albion" 240 ready for Expo EM),Andy.

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

In terms of Shapeways, my own experience has been similarly mixed! 

 

1 hour ago, Andy Cundick said:

Quite agree about Recreation 21 their MGW brake 3rd hangs above my workbench as an awful warning about how bad things can be better approach is probably resin cast bodies.The North British Railway Study Group have done several wagons which need nothing in the way of tidying up afterwards just adding w irons and brake gear.Similarly Cam Kits do some Cambrian Locos with the main body in resin which exquisite.(just lining and lettering an "Albion" 240 ready for Expo EM),Andy.

I'm actually quite relieved that it's not just me.....! I've also had some great stuff from Shapeways, notably Coastline Models Cambrian stuff, and several other suppliers. Our own KMCE's DSER wagons are superb.

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

If you are looking at a cottage industry approach, might be some mileage in offering silhouette cutting or similar of the elaborate MGW coach side panels to use as overlays in the Jenkinson style of ‘panel and box’ build. By offering such panels, a huge amount of work would be saved, as the actual construction of the coach carcass is a fairly simple task.

This is one approach I'm looking into. I've had a look at silhouette cutters and they certainly have some uses, although as I understand it they're not really suitable for materials over 1mm thickness. But the layering approach has a lot of mileage in it for elaborate coach panelling and even outside framed wagons.

Cheers,

Mark

Edited May 8, 2022 by 2996 Victor

[Galteemore]

Yes, the panel layer only needs to be 20 thou - 0.5mm.

[David Holman]

Resin casting also has merit, as Andy suggests. Have used it a lot on my 7mm scale standard and narrow gauge projects. Make one side and one end from plasticard, then make a mould of each ( plenty of materials available on line). This bit takes 24 hours to set, but after that the two part resin sets in 45 minutes and can be assembled with superglue. Very cheap to do, though you still need wheels and chassis of course.

[Killian Keane]

In Model Railways August 1978 there are drawings for two different MGWR 6 wheelers, I can scan these in if they'd be of use

[2996 Victor]

4 minutes ago, Killian Keane said:

In Model Railways August 1978 there are drawings for two different MGWR 6 wheelers, I can scan these in if they'd be of use

Hi,

Yes please, that would be incredibly helpful, thank you! I'll PM you my email address.

Cheers,

Mark

[Northroader]

I’ve just had the one kit from Shapeways, a GER coach which came around a year ago. I gather it was an improved print, with a whitish dusty finish, and I was quite pleased with it. Maybe earlier productions weren’t as good, the first time I saw a 3D print it reminded me of a 50ply sweeping off the pavement.

Resin castings? I’ve tried them, but the problem with me is having a flexible mould to free them always led to some distortion. There must be ways of getting round this, as when I buy them commercially, they’re nice and square.

[Mayner]

I like the way you phrased the question! 

In my experience (as a manufacturer) its unlikely to be commercially viable to produce 4mm kits or rtr models of MGWR locos and stock (particularly 21mm gauge) due to the very low level of demand.

While I have plans to produce some MGWR 6 wheel coaches and another loco, you are potentially looking at a 2-3 year lead time if I don't get sidetracked and live long enough.

Unless you have CAD or 3D modelling, scratchbuilding a coach or a wagon is probably the best option as it gives you control and achieve progress. Richard Chown's 7mm Broad Gauge Layout was first exhibited with two locos, two coaches and a hand full of wagons everything scratchbuilt before expanding into a large modular layout.

Producing CAD work for photo engraving or use with a Cameo Cutter or Models for 3D printing can involve a considerable investment in time and software before producing a useable result.

In a way I have gone backwards since I first set out to model the Midland in 21mm gauge during the early 1980s, 533 and the 6 wheeler were mainly modelled in plasticard, before I got distracted by the arrival of Studio Scale Models and MIR kits of non-MGWR locos and stock, only clawing my way back 30 years later with the Ks and 4w van kits.

I made the mistake of building the 6 wheeler from the drawing in Model Railways without checking the scale which was slightly larger than 4mm. The coach body was basically a box with windows, the beading plasticard strip, not dissimilar to the techniques in the Jenkinson book.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Mayner

[jhb171achill]

Only seeing this now. I’m in for coaches, certainly.

[Pete00018]

On 8/5/2022 at 1:33 PM, 2996 Victor said:

Thanks - I'm aware of these, but I've had a few items from there and, while I don't like to berate a fellow modeller's efforts, I was really quite disappointed. Some wagon bodies were significantly in error when compared to known dimensions, and the print quality was rather poor. I recently ordered a couple more items but the print quality wasn't improved.

Best regards,

Mark

I don't know about the broad gauge ones, but I've a number of narrow gauge Rc21 Shapeway prints and so far they have been goods quality. The usual steeping, washing and rubbing down before priming. Fingers cross the next one has no issues..

A given tho that not as detailed as brass kits.   

It would help if accurate drawings were to have for producing 3D CAD and prints.

 

Best regards,

 Peter

[2996 Victor]

On 5/8/2022 at 6:44 PM, Pete00018 said:

I don't know about the broad gauge ones, but I've a number of narrow gauge Rc21 Shapeway prints and so far they have been goods quality. The usual steeping, washing and rubbing down before priming. Fingers cross the next one has no issues..

A given tho that not as detailed as brass kits.   

It would help if accurate drawings were to have for producing 3D CAD and prints.

 

Best regards,

 Peter

Many thanks, Peter, that's good to hear.

The items I've had were narrow gauge as well, the War Department Class D bogie open wagons, which as mentioned were dimensionally seriously in error, and also some 009 wagon turntables. The print quality was really quite poor. I mentioned the quality of the prints on another forum, and the consensus from those who know about such things was that the choice of printing material was wrong.

Hopefully my experience is in the minority - he has many items that I'd be very interested in otherwise.

All the best,

Mark

Edited August 7, 2022 by 2996 Victor

[jhb171achill]

On 7/8/2022 at 7:49 AM, 2996 Victor said:

…..Hopefully my experience is in the minority - he has many items that I'd be very interested in otherwise.

All the best,

Mark

That seems to be a general consensus, unfortunately!

 

[2996 Victor]

6 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

That seems to be a general consensus, unfortunately!

 

A great shame

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

A great shame

True.

I do recognise that a huge investment in time is necessary to produce these designs, but I am also aware that there is ample technology now to 3D print things to a much, much higher standard.

[2996 Victor]

On 11/8/2022 at 11:18 AM, jhb171achill said:

True.

I do recognise that a huge investment in time is necessary to produce these designs, but I am also aware that there is ample technology now to 3D print things to a much, much higher standard.

Absolutely! When I first raised my doubts on my RMWeb thread, the first question asked by a guy who knows 3D-printing inside-out was, "What material was it printed in?" 

I can't remember what the material was, but when I answered, the response was, "That's the problem - it's the wrong material for a good finish and fine detail. People don't use the right materials for the job!"

I wonder how much better RC21's prints could have been with just a change of material type.

Cheers,

Mark 

[jhb171achill]

8 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

Absolutely! When I first raised my doubts on my RMWeb thread, the first question asked by a guy who knows 3D-printing inside-out was, "What material was it printed in?" 

I can't remember what the material was, but when I answered, the response was, "That's the problem - it's the wrong material for a good finish and fine detail. People don't use the right materials for the job!"

I wonder how much better RC21's prints could have been with just a change of material type.

Cheers,

Mark 

I can’t answer that as I have zero knowledge of the process, but it seems like a simple issue to solve. 

[2996 Victor]

2 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

I can’t answer that as I have zero knowledge of the process, but it seems like a simple issue to solve. 

I think there can be limiting issues with print design and material type, but I would've thought in this scenario it wouldn't be an issue. Cost may be factor, though.

[Mayner]

The majority of Shapeway Modellers select "white versatile plastic" as a default option because of the materials strength, flexibility and low cost.

Has anyone asked Simon Dawson (Recreation 21) for a quote for any of his Irish 1:76 scale locos, coaches or wagons in one of Shapeways SLA resins?

https://www.shapeways.com/materials/sla-accura-xtreme

The main risks with printing a coach like a MGWR 6 wheeler in one piece like the Recreation 21 model in a SLA resin is parts like buffers, axleguards and footboards breaking off because of the brittle nature of SLA resins and defects/flaws on one side of the model due to the limitations of the printing process.

Doing an exercise using Shapeways on-line quoting system Shapeways resin prints worked out between 3-6 times more expensive for the same model printed in 'white versatile plastic"

Edited August 14, 2022 by Mayner