Cie brake van lamps

[raymurph]

Hello all,

 

I'm looking for info on the placement and usage of tail lamps on cie brake vans. I'm making SSM's lovely brass kit and considering adding working lamps, tail or side lamps. I might either use IRMs wand operated lamp kit( a bit too large for a brake van probably) for tails or if I'm feeling more ambitious try to make my own from leds, resistor and capacitator.

 

On that note if anyone knows  any useful threads online for adding led lights to any brake van that could be a great help too.

 

Here is my effort so far next to CK prints lovely RTR version.

[Westcorkrailway]

52 minutes ago, raymurph said:

Hello all,

 

I'm looking for info on the placement and usage of tail lamps on cie brake vans. I'm making SSM's lovely brass kit and considering adding working lamps, tail or side lamps. I might either use IRMs wand operated lamp kit( a bit too large for a brake van probably) for tails or if I'm feeling more ambitious try to make my own from leds, resistor and capacitator.

 

On that note if anyone knows  any useful threads online for adding led lights to any brake van that could be a great help too.

 

Here is my effort so far next to CK prints lovely RTR version.

The lamp brackets were here (as illustrated) 

Wouldn’t be suprised if the modern points logo tail lamps got on these too later on 

[raymurph]

Thanks @Westcorkrailway.  I know the tail lamps were there but were there usually 1 or 2 tail lamps used? If the train was reversing would they change from red to white? Did the side lamps mirror the colour of the tail lamps? Were side or tail lamps more commonly used?

Edited October 3 by raymurph

[Sean]

 

its on the right hand side of this, not the left. 

further contrary again, the plough vans seemed to have 2 lamps.

as far as im aware they were battery powered and since the physical lens would be red it was a single colour lamp.

according to ai (so pinch of salt) 

Quote

The change from one to two tail lamps on Irish goods trains was implemented in 1990-1991, following recommendations from the inquiry into the 1983 Cherryville Junction rail accident, which emphasized the need for high-intensity rear lighting to improve visibility and confirm train completeness.

 

2 sources

 

The accident involved a rear-end collision where a Galway-bound train struck a stalled Tralee train, resulting in seven fatalities and 55 injuries, primarily due to the stalled train's engine failure from fuel exhaustion and subsequent visibility issues in signaling its presence. Prior to 1983, Irish trains typically used a single oil-based tail lamp; the post-inquiry upgrades shifted to battery-powered models, with the initial dual-lamp setup using French-designed yellow-cased lamps (emitting red light) to enhance reliability and safety. By the early 2000s, these evolved further to LED-based versions, but the core change to two lamps dates to that 1990-1991 period as part of Irish Rail's response to the accident's findings.

 

 

Regarding how reversing is handled on Irish Rail (Iarnród Éireann) networks, including for goods/freight trains, the procedures are governed by the Rule Book (Issue 09/13, updated January 2021), which outlines strict protocols to ensure safety. Reversing or propelling movements on running lines are only permitted under specific conditions, such as within station limits, during shunting under signal protection, or for short distances (less than 400m) without passing automatic level crossings, and always require the Signalman's explicit permission.

 

 

For example, the Rule Book states: "a train or vehicle(s) must not be propelled on a running line except as follows: - where authorised in the General Appendix - within station limits - on a Track Circuit Block line, when making a shunting movement under the protection of signals..." (Section H9).

 

 

Drivers must not initiate any reverse movement unless the controlling signal is cleared or the Signalman grants permission, and they are required to obey all signals applicable to the new direction of travel.

 

 

For head and tail lamps during reversing:

• Headlights and marker lights must be adjusted immediately when the train reverses direction to ensure proper visibility: white lights at the leading end and two red lights at the rear of the last vehicle, even when propelled in the wrong direction (except for specific cases like empty passenger trains at platforms).
   

   

  
  A direct quote: "you must change the lights as necessary when your train reverses direction" (Section H15).
   

   

  
  If a tail lamp fails, a red light (such as a handlamp) must be arranged before proceeding.
   

   

  
• On freight trains without a brakevan, the Guard must ride in the rear cab of the leading locomotive during reverse movements, except in exempted scenarios.
   

   

  
  Locomotives like the 071 or 201 Class, when not attached to a train, must carry two portable tail lamps (which can be on lamp brackets at either end or stored in a cab), and these are checked during preparation for service, partial setup, or disposal procedures—ensuring they are displayed or turned off as required per the Rule Book.
   

   

  

Signaling requirements emphasize caution: Propelled movements must not pass signals at Danger without authorization, and in Single Line Working (SLW) or possessions, wrong-direction movements use handsignals, disregard blocked line signals, and may involve detonator protection 400m from crossovers.

 

 

Roles are clearly defined—the Driver controls the movement and changes lights, the Guard assists with lamp placement and completeness checks (e.g., "check that it is complete with tail lamps" per Section T16), and the Signalman/Pilotman authorizes and coordinates to prevent conflicts.

 

 

Safety protocols include speed limits (e.g., maximum 5 mph/8 km/h for certain vehicles in worksites), audible warnings, and visual checks. In related incidents, such as the 2022 Tivoli collision involving road-rail vehicles (RRVs), reversing procedures highlighted the use of directional lights (white at leading end, red at tail), flashing beacons, audible squawkers, mirrors, and reversing cameras, with post-incident enhancements like additional monitors and collision avoidance tech to address blind spots.

 

 

While RRVs differ from main freight trains, these underscore broader Irish Rail emphasis on visibility and warnings during any reverse movement.

 

 

Overall, reversing is minimized on main lines for freight and handled manually by crew to comply with these rules, prioritizing collision avoidance and clear signaling.

 

[exciecoachbuilder]

Hi, back in the 70's and the early 80's only one red lamp was used on both wagons and carriages. They were paraffin lamps, so they never changed colour. I'm not sure about the side lamps on the guards van? Because I've never seen them lit in my experience in the railway, and I can't ask anyone anymore because any of the older guards and shunters that I knew, are all gone to the great shunting yard in the sky. I know during the MK3 new carriage building program( 1983 -89/90) that drivers at the time had an issue with the red lights that were on the MK3 carriage skirts ( under the body). They were being mistaken for signal lights seemingly, so they changed them to clear/ white lights.

Paul......

[raymurph]

49 minutes ago, exciecoachbuilder said:

Hi, back in the 70's and the early 80's only one red lamp was used on both wagons and carriages. They were paraffin lamps, so they never changed colour. I'm not sure about the side lamps on the guards van? Because I've never seen them lit in my experience in the railway, and I can't ask anyone anymore because any of the older guards and shunters that I knew, are all gone to the great shunting yard in the sky. I know during the MK3 new carriage building program( 1983 -89/90) that drivers at the time had an issue with the red lights that were on the MK3 carriage skirts ( under the body). They were being mistaken for signal lights seemingly, so they changed them to clear/ white lights.

Paul......

Thanks Paul, I like your answer best cause it's the easiest to model! So I might try to model:

no lights in side lamps and one red tail light at rear, on left or right.

 

I have some of the IRM tail lights which would work well even though they are a mite too large. Or if I understood west cork properly even those newer tail lights were sometimes used on brake vans.

[Sean]

2 hours ago, raymurph said:

Thanks Paul, I like your answer best cause it's the easiest to model! So I might try to model:

no lights in side lamps and one red tail light at rear, on left or right.

 

I have some of the IRM tail lights which would work well even though they are a mite too large. Or if I understood west cork properly even those newer tail lights were sometimes used on brake vans.

at the moment there are these https://ckprints.ie/page/tail-lamps

theres also a couple in the 121 loco accessory packs

[exciecoachbuilder]

5 hours ago, raymurph said:

Thanks Paul, I like your answer best cause it's the easiest to model! So I might try to model:

no lights in side lamps and one red tail light at rear, on left or right.

 

I have some of the IRM tail lights which would work well even though they are a mite too large. Or if I understood west cork properly even those newer tail lights were sometimes used on brake vans.

Thank you, you're welcome.....

[Mayner]

Informative RM Thread on BR rules related to the use of Brake Van lights. https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/144841-brake-van-lamps/ . T

Basically on BR.

(a) A singe taillamp was used on fully-fitted (braked)trains to indicate that the train was complete.

(b) On loose coupled unfitted or semi fitted trains both side lights were used to display a white light going forward and at some stage a requirement for the sidelights to display a red light towards the end of the train (using a red slide in the lamp housing was introduced.

I don't know if CIE continued to use the side lights (to indicate to the loco crew that a train was complete) following dieselisation and the switch to driver only operation.

There was an early 70s newspaper article (with photos) about an incident where a goods train broke apart while leaving Ballyhaunis on the Mayo Line and the driver arrived in Claremorris unaware of the incident. The Claremorris signalman apparrently asked the driver 'what happened to the rest of your train?" Apparrently the train divided after an axle broke on a wagon, the wagons towards the end of the train piled up on the de-railed wagon as a result of their momentum and the driver apparrently did not notice/feel a thing.

Possible the requirement to have illuminated tail/side lights may only have applied during hours of darkness or poor visibility. Before the Cherryville Junction collision a single white taillamp appears to have been considered sufficient to indicate that a train was complete.  The twin battery powered flashing taillamps were introduced in response to the collision

 

Edited October 4 by Mayner

[Signal Post]

Charlie Bishop of Chadwick Model railway did an interesting video on fitting lights to a BR brake van, may be of some use.

 

[raymurph]

On 5/10/2025 at 9:53 PM, Signal Post said:

Charlie Bishop of Chadwick Model railway did an interesting video on fitting lights to a BR brake van, may be of some use.

 

Thanks Signal, that's a really detailed how to video, just what I was looking for.

[DSERetc]

Charlie Bishop fitting lights on a BR Brake van is an excellent video.  The GNR brake van preserved by the RPSI in Whitehead and the LMS NCC brake van preserved in Downpatrick also have the side lamps on brackets on the corner posts of the vans.    The GSR and CIE had the lamp casings as permanent fixtures over the side duckets.   The oil lamps were accessed from inside the van. Red and clear glass slldes were inserted according to the direction of travel. The white light indicated to the driver that the train was complete. 

Dave Murray wrote in the IRRS Journal, October 1983 page 116, that the side lights were a factor in the collision of the down Night Mail and a stopped goods train at Straboe on 20th December 1944, at about 11.25pm.    In normal practice an engine driver approaching the rear of a stationary goods train should have seen 3 red lights, the red tail lamp and the two red side lamps.    Due to war time shortages, the guard, Patrick Ferriter was given one red tail lamp and only one side lamp. He was not given a red glass slide for the side lamp.   The driver of the Night Mail first saw the white side light and thought it was a train approaching on the up line.   He did not see the red tail lamp until he was almost upon it. Although he braked and shut off steam the crash occurred  within seconds.