GSWR 50' open gangwayed coaches

[jhb171achill]

This has to be the best thread on this forum for years!

[Flying Snail]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

This has to be the best thread on this forum for years!

I think it would be hard to find a better combination of research into the prototype coupled with design and build of the model. There's some attention to detail here!

[Mol_PMB]

You are all too kind.

I said I'd write a bit about Tea Car 841, and this is a case where my research is struggling to get the full picture. The story starts in the same way as 843, and here's a reminder of part of the diagram 71 in the IRRS Archives which is formally labelled for both 841 and 843. It carries a CIE stamp dated 1950 but the drawing itself looks older. 

The circular items shown on the centreline of the coach are identified as Flettner ventilators - the rotating vents sometimes seen on the roofs of old buses and caravans. The side elevation on this diagram shows the side without the pantry, and does not indicate any external modifications compared to the original vehicle.

 

The 1946 and 1953 CIE carriages listing have 841 as a tea car with 58 seats (same as 843) and this is consistent with the diagram.

 

IRRS Journal 9, Summer 1951, included the following paragraph describing the redecoration of 841, including the replacements of the fancy cast iron seat frames with wooden ones (possibly more like those now in 836 at Downpatrick). There is also an implication that the vehicle was repainted in plain dark green:

From the Catering Department file in the IRRS archives, I made the following notes on 841:

841    Tea Car    11/47    conversion to electric lighting authorised, but not done
841    Tea Car    31/10/1950    Hotels Dept proposed to release when new diners/buffets built
841    Tea Car    22/09/1952    Diesel buffet car, Waterford route, gas lighting, 18 seats, proposed for scrapping
841    Tea Car    25/02/1953    Already converted for diesel trains, in service Dublin-Waterford
841    Tea Car    17/08/1954    Has now been returned to traffic dept, no longer a catering car
841    Tea Car    04/10/1954    Already handed back to traffic dept
841    Tea Car    04/11/1954    Already handed back to traffic dept. Fitted for diesel rail cars

Note that the third reference listed it has having 18 seats. It was the catering department practice to only count the 'covers', i.e. seats at tables served from the counter. The diagram shows 18 seats at tables which is consistent. Unlike 843 and 838 where 16 or 15 seats were listed. This suggests that 841 may have had a slightly different layout.

I have not found any photos that clearly show 841 in its tea car guise. The early AEC railcar photos mostly show tea cars 838 or 343, occasionally 350 or 74D. This is frustrating!

There is an intriguing hand-drawn sketch in the IRRS Archives headed 'Buffet 841' which appears to suggest a different layout utilising only one seating bay, and that being at the end of the car with a 5-bay saloon (the other drawings show the pantry at the 4-bay saloon end). The plan would indicate a total of 64 seats:

Additionally, one copy of the diagram for the unmodified coaches of this series has hand annotations to the end with the 5-bay saloon, suggesting a similar modification. These two sketches are a bit of a mystery and may just represent schemes that didn't come to pass. 

 

As with the other two tea cars, 841 was used in the early railcar services but once the new-build buffet cars had entered service in 1954 it was handed back to the traffic department and was no longer used as a catering car. However, it was not scrapped (as had been proposed in 1952) and remained in use as a railcar intermediate.

In the IRRS Archives is a report by Bulleid into a fire on AEC railcar 2612 whilst working a Sligo to Dublin service on 31st August 1957. The train formation was given as:

2609 - 841 - 2612 + 2665 - 1141 - 2618. (N.B. I have a suspicion that 1141 is a typo for 1411)

So 841 had a lucky escape and continued in service.

 

In the 1961 carriage register, 841 is listed as a 56-seat standard class carriage, which would suggest that the pantry had not been converted back into seating accommodation, and that a further 2 seats had been removed. Perhaps the space was useful for luggage?

 

Irish Railfans News #7, April 1961, has this mention of 841:

On the last day of operation, Good Friday, March 31, full services were operated. A three coach railcar (2660/1410/2641) worked the up 08:25 from Bantry. The same set with an additional coach (841) inserted was on the 12:15 Albert Quay to Bantry and its return at 15:00. On the Clonakilty branch C212 hauled the 
morning passenger train and, running light to Ballinascarthy, worked two wagons down the Courtmacsherry branch. The same loco later worked the 15:00 mixed Clonakilty - Clonakilty Junction, the last train on the branch as the 19:00 down was replaced by road transport. On the Skibbereen line C216 was in command of the 13:30 to Baltimore and its return working at 14:20 to Drimoleague, with a train comprising compo 2098, LV 2709 and 2nd 1349. The “last train” from the public point of view was the 18:00 Cork - Bantry and was made up of the 12:15 set (2641/841/1410/2660). 

 

There are lots of photos and some cine film that show this last train on the West Cork, but not many show 841 clearly. Here are a selection of unclear pictures!

   

  

 

What can we learn from these muddy views? Well it looks like the normal roof vents are only over one of the two saloons in the coach, but the roof furniture in the middle of the roof is busy all along, and there seems to be a central water tank at the other end of the roof (adjacent to the Park Royal). Some of those features match what we saw the photo of tea car 843 (style and location of roof tank) and 843 also had extra 'Flettner' rotating vents on the centreline of the roof which are marked on the diagram and probably present on 841 too (especially with the normal vents being removed). The photo of 843 also showed extra vents on the sides above the windows at the pantry end, but none of the photos of 841 are clear enough to show whether these were fitted - my gut feel is that they were absent or had been removed by 1961.  

So whereas 843 appears to have been converted back to original condition after its spell as a tea car, 841 seems to have retained some of its tea car features and a reduced seating capacity.

I think these 1959 images from the Cork Digital Archive show either 841 or 843: https://corkdigitalarchive.ie/items/show/1700, https://corkdigitalarchive.ie/items/show/1714, https://corkdigitalarchive.ie/items/show/1726, https://corkdigitalarchive.ie/items/show/1703

  

 

After 61 years in service, 841 was eventually withdrawn in 1963 and scrapped in 1964, displaced by the Cravens. 

 

Frustratingly, I haven't found quite enough information to be sure of its appearance in the 1950s and 1960s. I'd like to model it in this form, but I'm probably going to have to guess. 

Has anyone got a better photo of 841 stashed away somewhere? 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks to Ernie for uploading some more excellent old photos this morning, showing a journey on the Valentia Harbour line.

In 1902, the 10 gangwayed open thirds that are the subject of this thread, were supplied alongside 4 open brake thirds of identical dimensions, styling and construction. Originally they had gangways at the passenger end only, but later a second gangway was fitted at the van end.

They were numbers 857 to 860, and survived until the 1960s - the last one going in 1966. I don't have a 'proper' drawing of these but I do have two diagrams and several good photos which would enable a brake third variant of the all-third model to be produced if people were interested.

In Ernie's latest photos the leading coach in this train is one of these open brake thirds:

 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

While waiting for a delivery from Wizard to enable me to complete the roof, I have built the bogies. Fortunately the weather isn't quite so impossibly hot today (29C rather than 34C), so I could contemplate soldering. 

Here are a few photos during construction:

These are compensated on the Brassmasters principle. I still need to add the springy wires across the ends to make them a bit less floppy, but I think I'll do that after completing the basic painting and putting in the wheels.

 

After an ultrasonic bath, I did a trial assembly and took some photos. Looking OK I think though not quite complete:

And a size comparison with a modified IRM Park Royal. The prototypes were built over 50 years apart, but provided very similar accommodation - a third class open saloon in two parts, and gangways. The older coaches were built with 72 seats (compared to 82 for the Park Royal). Some later had 2 toilets added, reducing the seating to 64 (compared to 70 for the Park Royal with 2 toilets).

There are some 1950s and 1960s photos around Cork showing these two types of coach coupled up in a train, and the relative sizes and heights of the models look about right. The length difference between a 50' coach and a 61'6" coach is quite significant. The older coach is much narrower as well, of course.