National Library of Ireland publication permissions

[Mol_PMB]

As you may know, I'm currently preparing a talk on the AEC Railcars to present to the IRRS Manchester Branch, and perhaps later to the Dublin Branch.

I'm using almost 100 old photos from various sources, and I'm very grateful to the IRRS archives team, plus our own forum members such as Ernie and Jonathan Allen for permission to use their images for this specific purpose, along with others including Roger Joanes who have all happily given their permission.

I was also hoping to use 4 or 5 images from the O'Dea collection held by the National Library of Ireland. As well as having to pay for these images (tens of euros per image), their terms require that I provide a copy of 'the entire work', i.e. my presentation, rights-free, to the NLI. Most of the copyright of the images in my presentation belongs to other people and organisations including those mentioned above. So they're not mine to give away. Also, why should I give away my work for free when they are charging me to use theirs? This seems an unfair and disproportionate requirement, and I cannot comply with it.

My present approach is to delete the NLI images from my presentation and try to substitute alternatives, but there will be some topics that can not be so well described without them. 

I was wondering if anyone else (perhaps including the authors amongst us) had found a way through this minefield?

Many thanks,

Mol

 

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

As you may know, I'm currently preparing a talk on the AEC Railcars to present to the IRRS Manchester Branch, and perhaps later to the Dublin Branch.

I'm using almost 100 old photos from various sources, and I'm very grateful to the IRRS archives team, plus our own forum members such as Ernie and Jonathan Allen for permission to use their images for this specific purpose, along with others including Roger Joanes who have all happily given their permission.

I was also hoping to use 4 or 5 images from the O'Dea collection held by the National Library of Ireland. As well as having to pay for these images (tens of euros per image), their terms require that I provide a copy of 'the entire work', i.e. my presentation, rights-free, to the NLI. Most of the copyright of the images in my presentation belongs to other people and organisations including those mentioned above. So they're not mine to give away. Also, why should I give away my work for free when they are charging me to use theirs? This seems an unfair and disproportionate requirement, and I cannot comply with it.

My present approach is to delete the NLI images from my presentation and try to substitute alternatives, but there will be some topics that can not be so well described without them. 

I was wondering if anyone else (perhaps including the authors amongst us) had found a way through this minefield?

Many thanks,

Mol

 

This very day I paid €20 for copies of two images, for a book. They didn’t ask for a copy.

It’s quite a few years since I last ordered anything from them, but the only stipulation I recall was to acknowledge the source when publishing.

[Mol_PMB]

That’s interesting- thanks JB. Having first approached them with an email enquiry, I was asked to fill in and sign a permission request form before they would even give me a price.
That form has a load of small print terms and conditions at the back, and by submitting the signed form I would be agreeing to the terms. So even before I have got the images or paid for them, I have to promise to give them a rights-free copy of my ‘entire work’. 
 

It may be that these requirements are not regularly enforced, but I still can’t agree to them because my ‘entire work’ includes many images where the copyright belongs to others.

 

For a few images I don’t think it’s worth it. 

[Flying Snail]

Thats very restrictive - you should revert back to them to tell them why you can't sign the permission form.

Edited 12 hours ago by Flying Snail

[Mol_PMB]

I have done exactly that. 
Maybe I’ve misunderstood it? 

Researching, writing and presenting this talk is something I’m doing for fun, not for monetary gain or because I want to get embroiled in a legal dispute! I’ll just drop the NLI images. There’s plenty of other good ones from IRRS, Ernie, Jonathan, Roger and my own collection. 

[cheesy_peas]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

It may be that these requirements are not regularly enforced, but I still can’t agree to them because my ‘entire work’ includes many images where the copyright belongs to others.

 

For a few images I don’t think it’s worth it. 

Ireland in a nutshell. All rules, rarely if ever enforced.

Heaps of NLI and indeed O'Dea images all over social media. Not aware of the NLI sending out cease and desist letters or legal teams over it.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, cheesy_peas said:

Ireland in a nutshell. All rules, rarely if ever enforced.

Heaps of NLI and indeed O'Dea images all over social media. Not aware of the NLI sending out cease and desist letters or legal teams over it.

I ACCIDENTALLY included an NLI shot in a public talk I was doing, though not of a railway subject. I did that talk twice. I thought the image (of a stately home) belonged to another archive which I’ve full permission to do what I like with. 

…..I'm writing this from prison…….!!!

[cheesy_peas]

25 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

I ACCIDENTALLY included an NLI shot in a public talk I was doing, though not of a railway subject. I did that talk twice. I thought the image (of a stately home) belonged to another archive which I’ve full permission to do what I like with. 

…..I'm writing this from prison…….!!!

"Arrest me, officer!"

[Broithe]

34 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

I ACCIDENTALLY included an NLI shot in a public talk I was doing, though not of a railway subject. I did that talk twice. I thought the image (of a stately home) belonged to another archive which I’ve full permission to do what I like with. 

…..I'm writing this from prison…….!!!

If the picture was upside down, they might not have spotted it...

[Mayner]

I did a quick Google search on the use of national library (in the broadest sense) copyright material.

One of the conditions in the AI overview was to provide the library with a free copy of the finished work regardless of whether your publishing/presenting it for monetary gain.

I can't find the original search but it seems to ring a mental bell, similar to Universities requiring students to provide their libraries with a free copy of their thesis, despite the student or family paying an arm & a leg in academic fees.

Although persentation would be classified as educational non-commercial, you may be subject to a duty to identify and obtain the copyright holders permission before publication.

It would be worth checking out UK guidance on copyright and its exemptions https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/intellectual-property-copyright are you are preparing a presentation of the Manchester branch.

The big issue like the extent of on-line scammers, its become very difficult to enforce copyright copyright law unless you have very deep pockets and are prepared to take a strong stance. It would just not be worth while for the NLI to go after individuals posting NLI copyright material on social media, cost more to persue a case than potentially awarded in damaged. Copyright breach is basically a civil offence where the copyright owner must sue the infringer for damages or injunction, only appears to crossover into criminal law when wiilfully done on a large scale for commercial gain or business use. 

No real point in going after JHB for the unauthorised publication of a photo of a stately home unless it was he made a lot of money out of the talk. 

 

[Branchline121]

O'Dea's collection has been discussed before on Wikimedia Commons, but unfortunately it seems they're very much still under copyright protection.

[jhb171achill]

6 hours ago, Mayner said:

No real point in going after JHB for the unauthorised publication of a photo of a stately home unless it was he made a lot of money out of the talk.

In one case I got petrol money, in another €100 in an envelope!!