popeye Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 My next question is this, I have bought this Ratio coach and intend to paint it CIE green with a snail to make it look like an old GSWR coach and i need to know what the numbers might be and where they would be on the sides? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 jhb171achill Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) I'd say that with a side profile like that, it would look more like an ex-DSER coach than any other constituent CIE company, so you could make up a number with a "D" suffix, e.g. 87D. There would be 2 possible livery variations in CIE times for green, plus black'n'tan if you wanted it to survive to the mid sixties. From 1945-55, dark green with broad eau-de-nil lines above and below window levels. Check old black'n'white shots of old coaches in the fifties to get a feel for the thickness of these lines - they're wrong width on the oft-seen Bachmann production models. There would be a "snail" in the middle, though coaches repainted in the late 40s and early 50s sometimes had two snails - each about a third along the coach side. Post 1955, the lighter green with a single thinner light green line below window level, and one or possibly no snail, which like numerals were in the same position. Numerals were reproduced under the end windows, never in the middle. Ends and roof black in both green variants. Edited March 2, 2015 by jhb171achill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 josefstadt Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 If I have the right coach the model is of a 48ft 7-compartment first without gangways. I had a quick look at the book GSWR Carriage Diagrams (Richards & Pender - Transport Research Associates 1975) and couldn't find a 1st class coach to match. The nearest I could find was a series of 45ft 7-compartment 3rd class coaches, numbers 805 - 810 which dated from 1900. Of these, numbers 805, 806, 808 and 809 were not withdrawn until 1961. As far as the positioning of the numbers, I'd suggest that they should be placed roughly where the ones in the picture of the model above are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 popeye Posted March 2, 2015 Author Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) Thanks for that info, it is a big help. I thought it looked a bit like the coach in the picture below. Can anyone tell me the history of this coach? Edited March 2, 2015 by popeye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Dunluce Castle Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Those ratio coaches are actually models of the ones brought over during the blitz to help the NCC with damaged stock. 2 of them lasted into UTA. (I'll give a more detailed reply when I'm back home) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Dhu Varren Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) Those ratio coaches are actually models of the ones brought over during the blitz to help the NCC with damaged stock. 2 of them lasted into UTA. (I'll give a more detailed reply when I'm back home) To be accurate, the coaches of this type were purchased in 1948 and were known as the 'Bain' coaches. They were not immediate replacements for blitz damaged stock. The subject coach is almost identical to number 22 which was a 1st class coach but of 50ft length. The Ratio coach is 48ft. In it's previous life it was 10513. The major change was to fit 5ft 3in gauge bogies. Still in LMS livery Edited March 2, 2015 by Dhu Varren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 jhb171achill Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 The photo is of a standard GSWR third of a type built 1902/3. It displays classic pre-1915 design features for that company. This one is either 836 or 837, the former being currently preserved and in traffic on the DCDR. Both survived as departmental vehicles, and I've an idea there were three. The reason I suggested a DSER prototype as more appropriate is the heights of the windows, which are too short in height for GSWR design, but look very similar to DSER. Having said that, every constituent CIE company had a wide array of carriages, many being one-offs, so a wooden coach lasting into CIE livery could to the untrained eye be from anywhere! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 jhb171achill Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Interesting photo, Dhu Varren. Any idea when it was taken? The livery is NCC, which differed slightly from LMS in many cases. Lining, especially on secondary stock, was often simpler or non existent, as on this, and crests were often absent especially after wartime economy kicked in. The coach number, 22, would be an NCC one - an LMS one probably had about five digits! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Dhu Varren Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) I believe the photo was taken in 1949 on the BCDR section of the UTA, probably in Holywood, as there appears to be a centre road. According to my research, there were 8 ex LMS coaches of mainly Midland Railway origin purchased in 1948. After refurbishment they entered service between 1948 and 1950. Number 22 entered service in 1948 in crimson lake, whether LMS or NCC remains to be seen. The rest entered service in 1949 and 1950 in UTA green. 20 50ft Brake 3rd. In service 1949. LMS number 23216 21 48ft Brake 3rd. In service 1950. LMS number 22890 22 50ft 1st Class. In service 1948. LMS number 10513 23 50ft 1st/3rd Composite. In service 1950. LMS number 16936 24 48ft 3rd Class. In service 1950. LMS number 14102 25 48ft 3rd Class. In service 1950. LMS number 14104 26 50ft 3rd Class. In service 1949. LMS number 14222 27 50ft 3rd Class. In service 1949. LMS number 14226 According to the details given in the assembly instructions for the Ratio 3rd Class coach, the model is of a batch of coaches which includes numbers 24 and 25. The only differences appear to be different bogies, and simplification of the beading. The other coaches in the Ratio range are similar in style to the UTA coaches, the main differences being the length, and the bogies. Edited March 2, 2015 by Dhu Varren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Dunluce Castle Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Great pic and info Dhu Varren, very helpful indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Garfield Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I believe the photo was taken in 1949 on the BCDR section of the UTA, probably in Holywood, as there appears to be a centre road. According to my research, there were 8 ex LMS coaches of mainly Midland Railway origin purchased in 1948. After refurbishment they entered service between 1948 and 1950. Number 22 entered service in 1948 in crimson lake, whether LMS or NCC remains to be seen. The rest entered service in 1949 and 1950 in UTA green. 20 50ft Brake 3rd. In service 1949. LMS number 23216 21 48ft Brake 3rd. In service 1950. LMS number 22890 22 50ft 1st Class. In service 1948. LMS number 10513 23 50ft 1st/3rd Composite. In service 1950. LMS number 16936 24 48ft 3rd Class. In service 1950. LMS number 14102 25 48ft 3rd Class. In service 1950. LMS number 14104 26 50ft 3rd Class. In service 1949. LMS number 14222 27 50ft 3rd Class. In service 1949. LMS number 14226 According to the details given in the assembly instructions for the Ratio 3rd Class coach, the model is of a batch of coaches which includes numbers 24 and 25. The only differences appear to be different bogies, and simplification of the beading. The other coaches in the Ratio range are similar in style to the UTA coaches, the main differences being the length, and the bogies. Great info there, Dhu Varren. Any chance you know what numbers the coaches carried in UTA service? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 jhb171achill Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Number 22 entered service in 1948 in crimson lake, whether LMS or NCC remains to be seen. The rest entered service in 1949 and 1950 in UTA green. The NCC used standard LMS maroon, so there was no difference. The differences between LMS livery (in Britain, obviously) and here, were that the NCC used either "NCC" or, more usually, "LMS NCC" instead of plain LMS; crests at the time this coach had been discontinued whereas on the LMS they were generally carried, and lining here was less common than across the pond. A coach painted in York Road as late as 1948 wouldn't have been lined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 jhb171achill Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) Excellent info, indeed. Just as CIE inherited a motley collection of stock from its constituent companies, so did the UTA. They had ex GNR stuff including ex-DNGR and even one LNWR coach which the GNR had bought, NCC stuff of Belfast construction (Irish loading gauge) and items built for the NCC in Derby to Irish loading gauge (new) and the narrower and lower British dimensions, in the case of things imported after the Blitz. Much older stock from the NCC section was the distinctive straight-sided BNCR stock, itself swallowed up by the MR(NCC) in 1905. The UTA also had ex-BCDR items of bogie and 6w variety, including a rake of bogies built at York Road to BCDR order, which owed more to NCC design than BCDR! The point here is that if you want to turn a proprietary coach into a general UTA or CIE steam era coach just by repainting, the sky's the limit. If you prefer to model something very exact, there's many a kit or model that can be "bashed" to produce a pleasing result. Edited March 2, 2015 by jhb171achill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Dhu Varren Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Whilst on the subject of Ratio coaches, the GNR purchased a number of ex LNWR coaches in 1947. Some of these were of a similar style to the Ratio kits, and the kits may be useful for ‘kitbashing’ some of these vehicles, although I have not done any research into the possibilities. Coach details are as follows: 472 L15 61ft Brake 3rd. UTA No 450 474 No details. Ex LMS 3474 477 K27 61ft 3rd Class. UTA No 302 478 K27 61ft 3rd Class. 479 K25 61ft 3rd Class. UTA No 300 480 K28 54ft 3rd Class. UTA No 304 I have drawings for the L15, K25, K27 and K28. If anyone wants copies, PM me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Dhu Varren Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Great info there, Dhu Varren. Any chance you know what numbers the coaches carried in UTA service? The UTA numbers carried were 20 to 27 inclusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Garfield Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 The UTA numbers carried were 20 to 27 inclusive. Cheers Dhu Varren... got confused and thought that was the NCC number series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Dhu Varren Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 The UTA numbers carried were 20 to 27 inclusive. Forgot to mention earlier. Under the UTA 1959 coaching stock renumbering, the coaches in question were renumbered as follows:- 20 renumbered to 467 21 renumbered to 469 22 renumbered to 351 23 renumbered to 275 24 renumbered to 343 25 renumbered to 345 26 renumbered to 349 27 renumbered to 347 With the exception of 24(343) and 25(345), all of these coaches were still in service in 1964. Withdrawal dates are not known for any of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 jhb171achill Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Excellent stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Hunslet 102 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) R Forgot to mention earlier. Under the UTA 1959 coaching stock renumbering, the coaches in question were renumbered as follows:-20 renumbered to 467 21 renumbered to 469 22 renumbered to 351 23 renumbered to 275 24 renumbered to 343 25 renumbered to 345 26 renumbered to 349 27 renumbered to 347 With the exception of 24(343) and 25(345), all of these coaches were still in service in 1964. Withdrawal dates are not known for any of them. None of these coaches were inherited by NIR,so withdrawal would have been between 1964 and 1967,bar your exceptions Edited March 2, 2015 by Hunslet 102 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Dunluce Castle Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 One of my earliest models, hence the lack of detail and no transfers but the kits are superb and very easy to put together. I have a couple more awaiting to be built, this time into NCC colours, if only we had more hours in a day lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 josefstadt Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 The photo is of a standard GSWR third of a type built 1902/3. It displays classic pre-1915 design features for that company. This one is either 836 or 837, the former being currently preserved and in traffic on the DCDR. Both survived as departmental vehicles, and I've an idea there were three. I'd have to disagree jhb. Nos 836 / 7 were open coaches and had only three doors on each side and the window arrangement was different. Also they didn't have toilets, whereas the one in the photo above has roof mounted tanks (see Richards & Pender p43). I'd suggest that it was one of the series 877-896 (Richards & Pender p39). The window patern of the coach in the photo and the positioning of the eight doors matche the outline of the coach shown in the book. One would need to see the other side to be 100% certain, as 877-896 had only four doors on the corridor side. If it is one of the 877-896 series repainting into CIÉ colours, possibly even black & tan, would be appropriate as, apart from 893 which was withdeawn in 1945, all the coaches lasted into the late 1950s while some even survived until 1964. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 jhb171achill Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Quite possibly, josefstadt, though when 836 came to the DCDR I'm nearly sure it had a loo, which was removed. Both it and 837 were to the sme era as the ones you mention, so many similarities would be evident. I noticed the windows indeed, which made me think it was a third one which made it into departmental stock. It's possible it wasn't from the same batch as the other two. Several GSWR coaches of this era ended up as late as 1974 being among CIE's very last wooden rake of carriages, which I'm sure you remember well - obviously (for younger readers!) long black'n'tan by this stage! It would be interesting to know when that picture was taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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popeye
My next question is this, I have bought this Ratio coach and intend to paint it CIE green with a snail to make it look like an old GSWR coach and i need to know
what the numbers might be and where they would be on the sides?
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