1960s train speeds crossing bridges and viaducts

[Noel]

At 52 secs look at the speed of 121 class hauled train crossing the Barrow bridge in 1963 - no H&S speed limits then! Was that because the structures were better maintained or the wear and tear on the structures not known at the time?

 

52 secs high speed over Barrow bridge

 

53 secs not exactly a speed restriction on the viaduct. 2m6s 121 is fairly pushing on and 5m27s on viaduct and especially 5m43s!!!

 

Note at 6m10s the two Sulzers double headed (or one being towed), a B101 in front and a B113 behind (Dalek). I love these old film clips from the zenith of Railway trains in Ireland.

[Broithe]

Depending on what film system was in use, it was often possible to project film at a frame rate that was different to that at which it was exposed, projecting at 24 frames a second would give a film exposed at 18 frames a second an apparent 1/3 increase in speed.

 

It does look rather fast...

[Garfield]

Note at 6m10s the two Sulzers double headed (or one being towed), a B101 in front and a B113 behind (Dalek). I love these old film clips from the zenith of Railway trains in Ireland.

 

It looks more like a C class that's being piloted (or hauled) by the B. The pioneer Sulzers had high axle loadings, so I don't think they would've ventured onto the Mallow-Waterford line, although I'm open to correction on this.

[Mayner]

The Waterford-Macmine Junction line closed shortly after the 1st film was made in 1963 with Bo-Bos taking over from J15s on passenger services. I have a copy of the 1960 WTT the general line limit of 50mph for the North Wexford line applied crossing the Barrow bridge, though there was a speed restriction on trains descending the grade from Rathgarogue through the tunnel to the bridge.

 

The B101 apparently double heading with a C is an interesting one. Through goods traffic on the central section of the Waterford-Mallow Line between Dungarvan and Fermoy was quite light, the heaviest traffic was concentrated on the section between Waterford & Dungarvan and to a lesser extent between Mallow & Fermoy. Goods traffic was carried by a daily return Waterford-Mallow goods and an afternoon Waterford-Dungarvan return trip working.

 

The B101 appear to have taken over from the Woolwich on the Rosslare Express & J15s on goods trains when the line was dieselised in the 1950s up to the arrival of the BoBos. The B101s would have been more sure footed than a B121 or B141 with a heavy loose coupled goods on the steeply graded Waterford-Dungarvan line. The double headed train was a westbound filmed between Durrow Viaduct and Ballyvole, the luggage van next to the brake van adds another dimension to the train.

 

Was the operating department simply using the train to transfer the C Class and the luggage van to the Cork area or was one of the locos to be used to work a Dungarvan-Waterford goods with van?

 

I was luck enough to see the level crossings in Dungarvan before the line closed in 67 and walk through Durrow Tunnel and over Ballyvoyle Viaduct before the track was lifted and even tried to cross the the DSER line Barrow viaduct before chickening out in crossing the opening span with the burnt out timbers.

 

Plenty of modelling material with both lines

[Noel]

It looks more like a C class that's being piloted (or hauled) by the B. The pioneer Sulzers had high axle loadings, so I don't think they would've ventured onto the Mallow-Waterford line, although I'm open to correction on this.

 

That makes sense. I originally thought it was a C class myself, but from some angles especially 6m37s the side profile looked eerily like a B113/114 with sloping front. I presume the second loco was travelling un-powered.

 

The Waterford-Macmine Junction line closed shortly after the 1st film was made in 1963 with Bo-Bos taking over from J15s on passenger services. I have a copy of the 1960 WTT the general line limit of 50mph for the North Wexford line applied crossing the Barrow bridge, though there was a speed restriction on trains descending the grade from Rathgarogue through the tunnel to the bridge.

 

The B101 apparently double heading with a C is an interesting one. Through goods traffic on the central section of the Waterford-Mallow Line between Dungarvan and Fermoy was quite light, the heaviest traffic was concentrated on the section between Waterford & Dungarvan and to a lesser extent between Mallow & Fermoy. Goods traffic was carried by a daily return Waterford-Mallow goods and an afternoon Waterford-Dungarvan return trip working.

 

The B101 appear to have taken over from the Woolwich on the Rosslare Express & J15s on goods trains when the line was dieselised in the 1950s up to the arrival of the BoBos. The B101s would have been more sure footed than a B121 or B141 with a heavy loose coupled goods on the steeply graded Waterford-Dungarvan line. The double headed train was a westbound filmed between Durrow Viaduct and Ballyvole, the luggage van next to the brake van adds another dimension to the train.

 

Was the operating department simply using the train to transfer the C Class and the luggage van to the Cork area or was one of the locos to be used to work a Dungarvan-Waterford goods with van?

 

I was luck enough to see the level crossings in Dungarvan before the line closed in 67 and walk through Durrow Tunnel and over Ballyvoyle Viaduct before the track was lifted and even tried to cross the the DSER line Barrow viaduct before chickening out in crossing the opening span with the burnt out timbers.

 

Plenty of modelling material with both lines

 

Thank for info John. Even 50mph seems a fair old lick for loose coupled wagons over the long bridge.

[roxyguy]

Didn't realise so much of the black and tan and flying snail wound up mixed in together for a time. Really interesting looking trains, not like now.

[jhb171achill]

Didn't realise so much of the black and tan and flying snail wound up mixed in together for a time. Really interesting looking trains, not like now.

 

 

The grey and yellow for 121s appeared with their delivery in 1961/2 and the last example repainted black'n'tan was, I think, very early 1967.

 

The unpainted "silver" (in reality worn and filthy greyish) was still to be seen on the occasional tin van as late as 1963/4.

 

Black'n'tan started appearing on a widespread basis from early 1963.

 

The late green livery appeared in 1955 (with the Park Royals) and green carriages could still be seen 1965/66.

 

The very last GNR coach to lose its GNR brown livery was brake 3rd no. 114 (now at Whitehead) which was only repainted into black'n'tan in 1967, having skipped the green era entirely. Coaches in GNR brown were still to be seen on the UTA at least as late as 1964.

 

GNR navy & cream could still be seen on the UTA in 1963, and on CIE about the same time. Beware: the GNR livery is NOT what's on the RPSI Cravens - GNR blue in carriages was darker, almost navy. The RPSI's livery is its own.

 

If we draw out a chart of the above, to illustrate overlaps, quite some variety is possible. With both steam and diesel, and loads of varied goods traffic, and most stations still handling most traffics, we probably have the single most interesting and varied period in recent railway history.

Edited June 6, 2017 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

From any info I have, it's as good as certain that the train is not so much double headed; it is more a case of rescuing a breakdown.

 

As Mayner says, B101s were well suited to this line and indeed were generally more closely associated with the southern end of the CIE system.

[roxyguy]

Cheers, very interesting indeed. Will encourage me to make up a few trains with a nice mix of the two, something different. Just a need a few Murphy 121's and I'll be off.

[Eiretrains]

As surmised, the C Class is most likely a failure (quite common with Crossleys then of course!) with the Sulzer locomotive rescuing the train.

 

The GM 121 Class locomotives were more common on the North Wexford line, so the clip of loco B166 is an interesting recording. The North Wexford briefly re-opened after closure for a number of GAA specials in September 1963, hauled by 141 Classes such as B158, B147, B174, B177 plus as a double-header. I believe the re-opening necessitated the reinstatement of some signalling equipment. The 141s also worked the demolition trains during the lifting of the line.

The double headed train was a westbound filmed between Durrow Viaduct and Ballyvole, the luggage van next to the brake van adds another dimension to the train. Was the operating department simply using the train to transfer the C Class and the luggage van to the Cork area or was one of the locos to be used to work a Dungarvan-Waterford goods with van?

The tin luggage van that's tacked onto the rear of the Waterford-Mallow goods as you highlighted appears to have been a frequent occurrence and I too have wondered for what purpose. I have asked those familiar with the line but I haven't quite got any concrete answer yet.

[Noel]

. . . we probably have the single most interesting and varied period in recent railway history.

 

Agree absolutely Jonathan. Engines, carriages and wagons that made train noises. A far cry from todays boring uniform modern image yo-yos. 1950 to 1975 seemed the golden era.

 

Cheers, very interesting indeed. Will encourage me to make up a few trains with a nice mix of the two, something different. Just a need a few Murphy 121's and I'll be off.

 

Me too. I can almost hear the distant rumble of the new Murphy Models 121 class if I put my ear to the rails and listen carefully. Its only a matter of months now. Watching videos like these has convinced me to buy one in the grey livery as well as a few in black'n'tan. As Jonathan says we can run almost any stock mix behind them.

[Noel]

.

 

Simulated nostalgia film

 

 

Apologies, couldn't resist

[roxyguy]

.

 

Simulated nostalgia film

 

 

Apologies, couldn't resist

 

Brilliant.

[jhb171achill]

 

The tin luggage van that's tacked onto the rear of the Waterford-Mallow goods......appears to have been a frequent occurrence and I too have wondered for what purpose. I have asked those familiar with the line but I haven't quite got any concrete answer yet.

 

I remember seeing that once or twice in the 1960s, but no more. I was told at the time that it was "probably carrying newspapers". Of course, if correct, that may even have simply been a one-off. Certainly, while it did occur, it wasn't common.

 

Other trains shown in that vid have a GSWR bogie with a tin van at EACH end. I often wondered about that too, having seen examples elsewhere of trains, sometimes quite short, with a van at either end.

 

I recall seeing what would have been one of the last Limerick - Ballina trains consisting of two laminates, with a bogie van at one end and a tin van at the other. I think it was the last time I saw a tin four-wheeler in traffic.

[Noel]

Brilliant.

 

Glad you liked it. A bit of simulated nostalgia fun for 1960s rural CIE era on old cine film.

[Broithe]

Glad you liked it. A bit of simulated nostalgia fun for 1960s rural CIE era on old cine film.

 

It's OK, but this modern nostalgia's not as good as the old stuff...

[Mayner]

I remember seeing that once or twice in the 1960s, but no more. I was told at the time that it was "probably carrying newspapers". Of course, if correct, that may even have simply been a one-off. Certainly, while it did occur, it wasn't common.

 

Other trains shown in that vid have a GSWR bogie with a tin van at EACH end. I often wondered about that too, having seen examples elsewhere of trains, sometimes quite short, with a van at either end.

 

I recall seeing what would have been one of the last Limerick - Ballina trains consisting of two laminates, with a bogie van at one end and a tin van at the other. I think it was the last time I saw a tin four-wheeler in traffic.

 

There are several photos of J15 hauled North Wexford passenger trains iin the early 60s in the Irish Railways in Colour series, the usual consist seems to have been a late GSWR corridor coach sandwiched between a pair of 4 w (tarnished silver) luggage vans. The only change seems to the consist seems to have been substituting one of the luggage vans with a heating van when the service was dieselised shorty before closure in 1963. There is also a picture of a North Wexford passenger train made up of a large J9 Class 0-6-0 and a solitary Rosslare 12 w brake comp. This would have had room for 1st and2nd class passengers and mail/parcel traffic.

 

The line limit over the North Wexford appears to have been 50 for passengers and 35 for goods trains.

 

The passenger services on the Waterford-Mallow line was restricted to a daily Cork-Waterford passenger train and the Cork-Rosslare express appears to have run trice weekly (TTS) for most of the year and daily during the summer peak.

 

 

Although there was no scheduled mail service over the line a luggage van on the goods would have been useful for parcel and newspaper (The Cork Examiner?) traffic on a line with such a sparse passenger service.

[Irishrailwayman]

It's OK, but this modern nostalgia's not as good as the old stuff...

 

Nostalgia is not what it used to be...