CIE/IE Mk3 types/layouts

[hexagon789]

I'm currently compiling a list of Irish Coaching Stock for use in any article I'm planning to right and while I've had no real issues with the Mk2d stock I've found a few discrepancies with certain Mk3 vehicles that I'm hoping someone can clear up for me.

 

For reference I'm looking for the state of the following vehicles in about 2004:

 

7107 - was this an Open Composite seating 36F/36S or an Open Standard seating 64?

 

7147 - was this an Open Standard seating 72, 66 or 64 plus a wheelchair space?

 

7157 - was this an Open First seating 64 or an Open Standard seating 64?

 

Additionally I'm curious as to how the two Executive Mk3s were used. I believe they were used in specials and so-called "Executive" trains but I assume they were also used in normal service trains? If so what services were they typically used in and as which type of vehicle, I've seen reference to 7162 being used as a dining car, is this when used in Executive trains or in lieu of a CityGold vehicle or something?

 

Finally I've got a vague idea of how the seats were generally formed but if someone could let me know if the following is broadly correct:

 

Dublin-Cork CityGold services: Typically Generator Van-CityGold-Buffet-5/6 Standards

 

Other Dublin-Cork: Typically Generator Van-Composite-Buffet-4/5 Standards

 

Dublin-Galway/Waterford/Tralee/some Limerick services: Typically Generator Van-Composite-Buffet-4/5 Standards

 

Dublin-Westport: Typically Generator Van-Standard-Buffet-3 Standards

 

Thanks in advance for any answers or clarifications anyone can give.

 

Regards, Ben

[hurricanemk1c]

I'll have to have a dig but I do have some typical formations from 2004 on a day trip from the UK (same for 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008) that may be of help. Will have them later on, and I'll also check out the seating capacities

 

I do not think the Executive coaches were ever used in regular service. If they were attached to a service train it may have been more of convinence than anything else

[hexagon789]

That would be great, thanks. I did did think that the Executives were reserved for specials and the like but also wondered about the operationall convenience of having two coaches that were used only on occasion, but your comment helps confirm what I previously thought.

Edited October 18, 2017 by hexagon789

[Glenderg]

I'm currently compiling a list of Irish Coaching Stock for use in any article I'm planning to right and while I've had no real issues with the Mk2d stock I've found a few discrepancies with certain Mk3 vehicles that I'm hoping someone can clear up for me.

 

For reference I'm looking for the state of the following vehicles in about 2004:

 

7107 - was this an Open Composite seating 36F/36S or an Open Standard seating 64?

 

7147 - was this an Open Standard seating 72, 66 or 64 plus a wheelchair space?

 

7157 - was this an Open First seating 64 or an Open Standard seating 64?

 

Additionally I'm curious as to how the two Executive Mk3s were used. I believe they were used in specials and so-called "Executive" trains but I assume they were also used in normal service trains? If so what services were they typically used in and as which type of vehicle, I've seen reference to 7162 being used as a dining car, is this when used in Executive trains or in lieu of a CityGold vehicle or something?

 

Finally I've got a vague idea of how the seats were generally formed but if someone could let me know if the following is broadly correct:

 

Dublin-Cork CityGold services: Typically Generator Van-CityGold-Buffet-5/6 Standards

 

Other Dublin-Cork: Typically Generator Van-Composite-Buffet-4/5 Standards

 

Dublin-Galway/Waterford/Tralee/some Limerick services: Typically Generator Van-Composite-Buffet-4/5 Standards

 

Dublin-Westport: Typically Generator Van-Standard-Buffet-3 Standards

 

 

 

 

 

The Wanderer himself might be able to assist with seat count etc.

 

I can only comment on the Cork-Dub services. All sets were formed of loco - genny - first class (a) - buffet - (b) Standard Open (c,d,e,f,g)

I think that CityGold was for the express services early in the morning and in the evening for business customers, and the rest of the days service was just a "First Class" instead, a little red 1 on a gold coin logo on the doors. Executive coaches were for hire, motivational speaking, company outings, that kind of fare. I never saw one in service, and photos of them running on the network are rare as hen's teeth.

 

R

[Admin]

I'm currently compiling a list of Irish Coaching Stock for use in any article I'm planning to right

Regards, Ben

 

Hi Ben,

 

Any more details on the article? Is it for modelling, or railway consumption?

[hurricanemk1c]

7107 - 36F / 36S

7147 - 72S

7157 - 64F

 

Source: Irish Railways Traction and Travel, Fourth Edition (2004)

 

By January 2007, they were:

7107 - 64S

7147 - 64S with wheelchair

7157 - 64S

 

 

Regards formations, I don't have exact services but hoepfully the below will help a bit.

 

17/8/03

Galway - 5606+5230+5153+5401+5206+5223+5210

 

21/8/03

Claremorris - 7163+7101+7137+7108+7149+7413+7167+7612 (0710 Westport - Heuston with 214)

Athlone - 7605+6201+7403+6204+6205+6207+6202+6401

Clara - 7611+7165+7404+7110+6208+7120+7129+7148

Heuston - 7601+7171+7411+7151+7164+7132+7131+7138

Tara Street - 3173+1545+1544+1507+1546+1536+1514

Tara Street - 1552+1523+1504+1506+1529+3189 (1225 Pearse - Drogheda with 220)

Connolly - 5607+5211+5407+5228+5236+5101+5102 (1335 Connolly - Sligo with 073)

Ossory Road Junction - 6314+6310+6301+6316+6101 (with 221)

Heuston - 7130+7150+7153+7154+7155+7157+7170+7148+7407+7610

Heuston - 7129+7120+6208+7110+7404+7165+7611 (1800 Heuston - Westport with 202)

 

25/8/03

Claremorris - 7101+7137+7108+7149+7413+7167+7607 (with 204)

 

 

I'll dig out 2004 tomorrow

[hexagon789]

It's primarily for a group of friend who are interested in railways, I've already done an article on the British Rail ScotRail 47/7 push-pulls, but I do plan to make the article available online at some point.

 

I've being doing a bit more research and I got another vehicle to add to the mixture 7110, I'm curious as to whether this vehicle was converted from its original 64-seat full First layout to a 72-seat Standard as several sources suggest or whether it remaimed a 64-seat possibly declassified First like 7107 and 7157 seem to have.

 

The trouble is for ages you can't find any information then when you find lots of information it all conflicts with each other, c'est la vie I guess.

 

But thanks to all those who have replied so far, the photos of 7107, 7147 and 7157 are both helpful and interesting but I'm now even more confused as 7107 seems to have possibly remained a 64-seat full First?

 

I'm still hopeful someone can perhaps explain it all and what actually was the arrangement for these 4 vehicles in 2004.

 

EDIT: just seen the above post, I started typing this reply before it was posted but I'll leave it up as is with this edit for clarification.

[hexagon789]

That's immensely helpful hurricanemk1c as are the formations. Thanks a lot, the reseating in 2007 makes a lot more sense to the other arrangements I've found.

 

Was 7147 used on specific services because of its status a a Disabled Standard or just as any other Standard?

 

Seems a bit strange that 7107 was converted from 64-seat First to 72-seat (36/36) Composite to 64-seat Standard.

 

And thank you for including Mk2d formations as well, that helps with the Mk2d bit if the article.

Edited October 18, 2017 by hexagon789

[Mayner]

The Executive Coaches were regularly used by Guinness for entertaining clients from the bar trade, (tours to James Gate & Dundalk breweries, Galway Races etc. The Executive train was exhibited at the Inchacore 150 in 1996 but was required for a charter on the Saturday afternoon.

[Warbonnet]

The Executive Coaches were regularly used by Guinness for entertaining clients from the bar trade, (tours to James Gate & Dundalk breweries, Galway Races etc. The Executive train was exhibited at the Inchacore 150 in 1996 but was required for a charter on the Saturday afternoon.

 

Was quite lucky to have a spin from Connolly to Kilkenny in the Executive set back in 2008 for a work Christmas party. Probably enjoyed the jaunt in the coaches more than the party itself but hey-ho!

[Warbonnet]

It's primarily for a group of friend who are interested in railways, I've already done an article on the British Rail ScotRail 47/7 push-pulls, but I do plan to make the article available online at some point.

 

.

 

Sounds great Ben, I have a real love for the Glasgow - Edinburgh push-pulls! Any chance you could send the article on? Would love more info on them!

[hexagon789]

I can PM or e-mail you the article if you like, whichever is more convenient. Be warned it's my first article so it's rather long and wordy! I can also give you a fairly exhaustive list of formations to go with it as well if you care for it.

[hexagon789]

I've come up with a few more questions I'm afraid! When were the Composites reseated from 16F/52S to 32F/36S and is there a particular reason why in the original full Firsts (7107, 7110, 7157) and the Composites that IÉ settled on 2+2 seating when both the Mk2d First Class and that of British Mk3s was 2+1? And why were the CityGold vehicles converted? Was it decided that the 2+2 Full Firsts weren't really suited to Business traffic or something? Thanks for any answers/ideas, regards Ben.

Edited October 21, 2017 by hexagon789
small typo

[hurricanemk1c]

Apologies for the delay. More formations below. I can't currently place my hand on my 2006 notes but do have 2007/2008 handy.

As for the other queries, before my time!

18/8/04
Heuston - 7135+7139+7113+7125+7108+7410+7156+7615
Kildare - 231+6318+6301+6312+6305+6101 (1244 ex Kildare - Heuston)
Heuston - 7134+7126+7123+7138+7120+7412+7166+7614
Heuston - 3185+1516+1531+1558+1507+1523+1515+1536
Connolly - 230+9204+9214+9203+9206+9211+9403+9104+9002

27/7/05
Belfast Central - 218+9210+9202+9209+9201+9203+9402+9103+9001

3/8/05
Connolly - 5106+5219+5224+5203+5208+5201+5401+5221+5602+071 (1335 Connolly - Sligo)
Connolly - 9003+9101+9401+9203+9216+9212+9215+9207+228 (1100 Connolly - Belfast Central)
Drogheda - 9001+9103+9402+9208+9201+9209+9202+9210+227 (1200 ex Drogheda - Dublin Connolly)
Connolly - 9002+9104+9404+9205+9211+9214+9213+218  
Heuston - 3180+1518+1554+1505+1520+1556+1543
Heuston - 7113+7128+7132+7103+7137+7140+7409+7156+7606

 

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks for the reply, the formations are very helpful. 2007/8 formations woukd be welcome too if it's not too much trouble.

[hexagon789]

At long last the article is almost finished, however a couple of other questions have arisen in the interim. They aren't really related to internal layout but as they are to do with the Mk3s it seemed logical to add them to this thread.

 

1. When and what was the first service run with Mk3 stock?

2. When were the Mk3s permitted to run at 100 mph as opposed to 90 mph?

3. What type/types of Wheel Slide Protection were they fitted with?

BR Mk3s were fitted with one of two systems originally. The prototype vehicles, Mk3a LHCS and early production HST trailers were equipped with a Girling-designed WSP system. The remainder of, and indeed majority, of HST trailers, all Mk3 sleepers and the Mk3b LHCS were equipped with a British Rail-designed WSP. Some have been fitted with a more modern system from Knorr Bremse since privitisation but both orginal systems remain in use.

I assume the IÉ Mk3s had either the Girling or BR system or possibly both were used depending on batch/vehicles type unfortunately I can't find out which system(s) was used and decent quality photos of bogies are proving elusive.

Thanks for any replies.

[warb]

Photo of bogie on Mk3 that might help on 6307

[hexagon789]

12 hours ago, warb said:

Photo of bogie on Mk3 that might help on 6307

 

Thank you, that's absolutely perfect - a good clear photo of the bogie detail. Looks as though the Suburban Mk3s, at the very least, were equipped with BR WSP, which makes sense as they were a later build after all.

[hexagon789]

Does anyone know what the original plan or indeed formation of Mk3 sets was originally in the mid-eighties? From what I gather originally there were only three or four Firsts. The ITG book from 1987 describes 7140 as a 72-seat Standard but I've seen two photos of it with First Class markings, though the seating appears not to line up with the windows, as though it was a possibly a 72-seat First, with the other three vehicles being 64-seaters, though it could be just the photo.

Was the original set-up EGV+Buffet+Standards on non-Cork line services (if indeed the Mk3s operated any such services early on) and EGV+First+Buffet+Standards on Cork services?

Just curious, thanks for any info.

Edited May 4, 2019 by hexagon789
New information and correcting some discrepancies in my post.

[hexagon789]

It suddenly occurred to me this evening after finding a photo of a Mk3 which answered another one of the mysteries of the CIÉ/IÉ fleet that I was now in a position to answer my own questions after all these months!

In case it's of interest to anyone I'll summarise as follows:

On 10/18/2017 at 4:48 PM, hexagon789 said:

I'm currently compiling a list of Irish Coaching Stock for use in any article I'm planning to right and while I've had no real issues with the Mk2d stock I've found a few discrepancies with certain Mk3 vehicles that I'm hoping someone can clear up for me.

 

For reference I'm looking for the state of the following vehicles in about 2004:

 

7107 - was this an Open Composite seating 36F/36S or an Open Standard seating 64?

Internally 64 seats

7147 - was this an Open Standard seating 72, 66 or 64 plus a wheelchair space?

64 seats plus wheelchair, 7148 same

7157 - was this an Open First seating 64 or an Open Standard seating 64?

64 seats but unlike 7107 entirely in table bays

Additionally I'm curious as to how the two Executive Mk3s were used. I believe they were used in specials and so-called "Executive" trains but I assume they were also used in normal service trains? If so what services were they typically used in and as which type of vehicle, I've seen reference to 7162 being used as a dining car, is this when used in Executive trains or in lieu of a CityGold vehicle or something?

Specials primarily, 7161 entered service originally as a 64-seat First

Finally I've got a vague idea of how the seats were generally formed but if someone could let me know if the following is broadly correct:

 

Dublin-Cork CityGold services: Typically Generator Van-CityGold-Buffet-5/6 Standards

Other Dublin-Cork: Typically Generator Van-Composite-Buffet-4/5 Standards

Dublin-Galway/Waterford/Tralee/some Limerick services: Typically Generator Van-Composite-Buffet-4/5 Standards

Dublin-Westport: Typically Generator Van-Standard-Buffet-3 Standards

Broadly correct though the Westport sets conveyed First Class until 2003 so would've had a Composite and many rakes to Westport were actually full length sets.

 

 

On 8/26/2018 at 10:04 PM, hexagon789 said:

1. When and what was the first service run with Mk3 stock?

4th July 1984, two sets entered service on Dublin-Cork workings 

2. When were the Mk3s permitted to run at 100 mph as opposed to 90 mph?

From the May 1995 timetable change

 

On 8/26/2018 at 10:04 PM, hexagon789 said:

3. What type/types of Wheel Slide Protection were they fitted with?

Later BR type as fitted to BR Mk3b carriages

 

 

On 1/25/2019 at 6:55 PM, hexagon789 said:

Does anyone know what the original plan or indeed formation of Mk3 sets was originally in the mid-eighties? From what I gather originally there were only three or four Firsts. The ITG book from 1987 describes 7140 as a 72-seat Standard but I've seen two photos of it with First Class markings, though the seating appears not to line up with the windows, as though it was a possibly a 72-seat First, with the other three vehicles being 64-seaters, though it could be just the photo.

Was the original set-up EGV+Buffet+Standards on non-Cork line services (if indeed the Mk3s operated any such services early on) and EGV+First+Buffet+Standards on Cork services?

Originally the "Firsts" were identical to Standards, 7107 and 7110 weren't fitted out with the 64-seat layout until 1986 and 7157 didn't enter service until mid-1987.

 

Finally, despite what the ITG and Platform 5 stock books say, it appears that 7110 never reverted to a 72-seat layout as the books suggest but internally remained identical to 7107 with 64 seats.